April 1 beta - House of Jimenez

[MichOrion]

Just noticed something weird with the Jimenez clan in the 1066 scenario. In history the monarch from Aragon in 1066 was known as Sancho I or Ramirez later to become Sancho V King of Aragon and Navarre. His father was Ramiro I of Aragon. In the game a Sancho Jimenez rules Aragon (and has the bastard trait) and has a brother named 'Sancho Ramirez' that is the same age as the king. I can't find any evidence of two Sancho brothers from my sources. Shouldn't 'Sancho Ramirez' be in charge of Aragon and not the other brother? Assuming of course that the two brothers are not an error.

In Navarre a similar situation exists, Sancho IV ruled Navarre in history. He was the son or Garcia VI. In the game there are two Sanchos born to Garcia, again I can't find any evidence of two Sanchos born to Garcia VI.

Am I off target here or is this an error? I am by no means a Spanish history expert and would like to be corrected if incorrect. Also, I wonder if this is the situation in v1.04a?

I tried to search for this sort of thing thinking it may have been mentioned before but I did not find anything. I apologize if this is a repeat.

BTW it's screwing up my newest AAR with all these 'extra' Sanchos that I can't place in history running around. There are 6 Sanchos in 3 generations and 4 Sanchas I'm starting to lose it.

 

[Third Angel]

The historical situation is very complex. There was this guy Sancho the Great of Pampelune who managed to unify most of christian kingdoms under his rule. When he died, he gave Navarra to his eldest son Garcia, the second son Ferdinando got Castilla, and Ramiro (who was actually the eldest but a bastard) ended up with Aragon (and two small counties which he took when the fourth brother Gonzalo died).
Two years later Ferdinando of Castille took Leon in the name of his wife Sancha (sister to the last king Bermudo). He died in 1065 and divided his realm again between his sons: Castilla to Sancho, Leon to Alfonso and Galicia to Garcia. The brothers started fighting each other immediatly.
In Navarra, Garcia and his son Sancho were finally defeated by Castille between 1054 and 1076, while in Aragon Ramiro's son Sancho was in charge from 1063 (his grand-daughter Petronilla was later to marry the Count of Barcelona).

 

[MichOrion]

That I all understand but did Garcia and Ramiro both have two sons each named Sancho? That are the same age? These family trees where generated from the game data, the first is Ramiro's children and the second is Garcia's. I've circled the Sanchos in question.

 

[Third Angel]

I think that most of Ramiro and Garcia's superfluous sons were added so that the iberian realms are not united too soon in case there is a lack of heir. Only the castillan dynasty seems to be historically accurate (except for Garcia being a Duke of Galicia and no King, but again that is for gameplay's sake.)

 

[MichOrion]

I would hope that they 'extras' where not added just for gameplay's sake, that would have been foolish to do so. It looks like I'll be offing the extras here in my AAR. I guess I could try to edit the extras out of the savefile.

 

[Third Angel]

I guess I could try to edit the extras out of the savefile.

I guess that would be easy enough. Just find the wrong sanchos and delete their character entry, but do it before they get married or have children, or they will be referred to somewhere else as husband or father and you'll have to find and delete that too...

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Well, if you can provide sources that there should be just one Sancho per kingdom, then we could take a look at it.

 

[trajan]

That I all understand but did Garcia and Ramiro both have two sons each named Sancho? That are the same age? These family trees where generated from the game data, the first is Ramiro's children and the second is Garcia's. I've circled the Sanchos in question.

(images snipped)

Not to hijack your thread, but did you use a tool to generate these images? I've been playing around with Subterranean's family tree generator and various free family tree programs I've found on the net and can't manage to create anything that looks this good.

 

[Third Angel]

I would hope that they 'extras' where not added just for gameplay's sake

So far I have found one Sancho brother to Sancho IV of Navarra. He was a bastard and the later King Garcia Ramirez who restored Navarra in 1134 was his grandson.
About Aragon I have found no clue that there ever was a second Sancho.

Well, if you can provide sources that there should be just one Sancho per kingdom, then we could take a look at it.

This would be particularly hard since many sources don't give every single son a King had, especially at this time. For instance, I found about the navarran bastard Sancho in only one source while others never mentioned him.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

This would be particularly hard since many sources don't give every single son a King had, especially at this time. For instance, I found about the navarran bastard Sancho in only one source while others never mentioned him.

Which is why I am very reluctant to remove people, as it might make things less correct.

 

[MichOrion]

So far I have found one Sancho brother to Sancho IV of Navarra. He was a bastard and the later King Garcia Ramirez who restored Navarra in 1134 was his grandson.
About Aragon I have found no clue that there ever was a second Sancho.




This would be particularly hard since many sources don't give every single son a King had, especially at this time. For instance, I found about the navarran bastard Sancho in only one source while others never mentioned him.

I haven't even found a source for either one of them. Was the bastard brother king in 1066? The game shows the bastard king in 1066 with his mother and father being the same as the non-bastard brother. What about Sancho I of Aragon? The game shows another brother and calls the 'extra' brother Ramirez, isn't the king of Aragon in 1066 called Sancho Ramirez?

 

[MichOrion]

I found this iste for Royal Lineage. It's been the best source for me to find the children of these monarchs. Anything on the net may or may not be correct.

Ramiro I of Aragon children

Not to hijack your thread, but did you use a tool to generate these images? I've been playing around with Subterranean's family tree generator and various free family tree programs I've found on the net and can't manage to create anything that looks this good.

The best one in my opinion is GenoPro. It's a free download but the free version limits the amount of entries in the family tree, somewhere around 200 persons I think. The cost for the unrestricted version is fairly cheap however. Just import the file that Subterranean's tree maker generates. You have to do a little massaging to make it look good but it gives the best result in my opinion. Check out my AAR linked in my sig to see more examples of GenoPro being used. If you need any help with the program just PM or Email me.

Edit - Forgot to mention after creating the tree to make an image of it you must have some sort of image capture software. You can find many different kinds image capture software avalable for download from www.download.com. I use SnagIt because it's cheap.

 

[Third Angel]

I haven't even found a source for either one of them. Was the bastard brother king in 1066? The game shows the bastard king in 1066 with his mother and father being the same as the non-bastard brother. What about Sancho I of Aragon? The game shows another brother and calls the 'extra' brother Ramirez, isn't the king of Aragon in 1066 called Sancho Ramirez?

I warned you that this was tough, and not the least because every guy in the area has to be named either Sancho or Ramiro or Fernando or Garcia and that's it.
About Aragon, the game shows the King Sancho (II) as a bastard when he was not (in fact his father Ramiro was one). He is given two brothers of whom I never heard about and one of them is named Sancho Ramirez but the King could be called like that as well since -ez only means "son of".
About Navarra, the game shows the King Sancho (IV) as having four brothers, one of them called Sancho whom I know only as a bastard, which he is not in the game; the other one I ever heard about being Raimundo.
I think the extra-brothers were added to avoid early iberian unity (except for Leon and Castille) and I'm fine with them. The only problem I can see is the bastard trait given to the wrong persons.

 

[MichOrion]

Well I've edited my game to show King Sancho of Navarra having a bastard brother and Sancho of Aragon without a Sancho brother. Lets see what happens.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Are you sure about this? I could have sworn that we swapped some bastard (ie. born-out-of-wedlock character) around in that region not very long ago. Maybe it's my imagination.

Anyway, while you're at it I think it's worth re-creating the Kingdom of Whateveritwas that I had to turn into a duchy under Leon instead (a while ago for balance reasons) since we aren't running into the same issues as much anymore.

 

[Third Angel]

Are you sure about this? I could have sworn that we swapped some bastard (ie. born-out-of-wedlock character) around in that region not very long ago. Maybe it's my imagination.

I am definitely sure about King Sancho of Aragon not being a bastard in 1066 as shown in the game, while his father Ramiro was. This would make more sense as you can see that Sancho does have the same mother as his brothers and sisters, while Ramiro doesn't.

Anyway, while you're at it I think it's worth re-creating the Kingdom of Whateveritwas that I had to turn into a duchy under Leon instead (a while ago for balance reasons) since we aren't running into the same issues as much anymore.

I guess the Kingdom of Whateveritwas is Galicia and it is under Castille. It could be independant but I'm not sure about making it a kingdom again since it was only one for a few years after its creation in 1065, then King Garcia was exiled by Sancho of Castile and later imprisoned by Alfonso of Leon, and the "Kingdom of Galicia" never existed ever again.
Besides, there are already five kingdoms in Iberia only and we don't really need a sixth which doesn't have the historic importance of the others. Castille and Aragon were young kingdoms also and Portugal didn't even exist but they lasted. Leon and Navarra disappeared a few years later also (Navarra to be recreated in 1134) but they were the original kingdoms of the Northern Christians in Spain.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Well SGAL was changed into a duchy to help bolster the Iberian Catholic side until some other measures had been put in place and tweaked. I still have my "to do" notes from last October and one of the items is "remove GALC and recreate SGAL on balance success". Since most of the reports I'm reading would suggest at Iberia is fairly balanced now - perhaps even to the point of having tipped the scales too far - I'd like to bring the hostory realm back into existence and see how/whether it shakes things up.

(That's yet another fun part of beta...you can try stuff and if it works, great! If it sucks, you figure out why and remove it. )

 

[MichOrion]

Here's a screenie of what's happened so far.

Alfonso died in Lisboa without an heir and Garcia died without an heir, giving Castille both Leon and Galicia. The AI also did some fighting and Leon and Castille made some gains. Spain looks to be all Castille at the moment.

 

[Third Angel]

I think the extra-brothers were added to avoid early iberian unity (except for Leon and Castille) and I'm fine with them. The only problem I can see is the bastard trait given to the wrong persons.

After some more research, turns out all the brothers showed in the game did exist. Both Sanchos of Aragon and Navarra had bastard Sanchos brothers (not so in the game).

 

[MichOrion]

Had to dig pretty deep then, eh? Well I guess the thing to do is change the extra brothers into bastards and remove a parent from their pedegre and possibly add 'Ramirez' to SAncho of Aragon's name.