Apparently the Sherman tank was a good tank

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ltccone

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Kelly: Well Oddball, what do you think?

Oddball: It's a wasted trip baby. Nobody said nothing about locking horns with no Tigers.

Big Joe: Hey look, you just keep them Tigers busy and we'll take care of the rest.

Oddball: The only way I got to keep them Tigers busy is to LET THEM SHOOT HOLES IN ME!

Crapgame: Hey, Oddball, this is your hour of glory. And you're chickening out!

Oddball: To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some type of weird sandwich, not some nut who takes on three Tigers.

Kelly: Nobody's asking you to be a hero.

Oddball: No? Then YOU sit up in that turret baby.

Kelly: No, because you're gonna be up there, baby, and I'll be right outside showing you which way to go.

Oddball: Yeah?

Kelly: Yeah.

Oddball: Crazy... I mean like, so many positive waves... maybe we can't lose, you're on!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065938/quotes?ref_=tt_ql_3
 
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D Inqu

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Lol. And all others didn´t lie about their losses. The Red Army commanders only reported 26% - 44% of their unit losses to the high command, during the entire war. So the official casualties numbers are way to low. The % number is from the official burea of the high command.
Sorry, what is this nonsense? How is that even supposed to work? If commanders don't report losses, how would they get replacements? Also, there is no such thing as "official burea of the high command" in the WW2 whatever that's supposed to mean.
This "russian hordes" crap is getting ridiculous.

Every government tried to hide the real losses from the public.
During the war. Archival data that is avaliable post war is fairly accurate.

Until today the historians aren´t certain about the real numbers. The german red cross statet in 1975 3,58 mill dead soldiers.
Which long been known to be a gross underestimate

In 1999 a historian (forgot his name) estimated the dead around 5,58 mill.
Rudiger Overmans, who dug up through archival data for a few years, and proved that older numbers have been gross underestimation. The numbers compiled by him are now accepted as the official figure for German military losses.

So lets talk about the SU, the official number is 8 mill. dead soldiers. Most historians think around 11 mill. is correct.
You are inventing a "difference" where one does not exist. 8.8 million is the number of military dead. Up to 3 million POWs have died in captivity, which gives the second number.

One even estimates around 25 mill.
That's wacko conspiracy theories
 
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Opanashc

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So lets talk about the SU, the official number is 8 mill. dead soldiers. Most historians think around 11 mill. is correct. One even estimates around 25 mill.
~34.5 mobilized. ~12.4 million left at the end of the war. ~5 million transferred to industry and such. ~5 million demobilized due to wounds. ~1.8 million returned from captivity after the war. Some emigrated (because they got captured and volunteered to serve the germans). So, at MOST ~10.3 million died as part of Red Army. That's what, 1.25 times the official figure? Compare that to Germany's claim of ~2 million and estimates of 5.5 million - almost 3 times difference.
But we got off topic.
 
G

Gethsemani

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Unless maybe the opponent is Michael Wittmann and you are attacking Villers-Bocage.
You mean the engagement in which Wittmann's Tiger I was knocked out by a 57mm ATG after conducting a solo attack that revealed the location of the 101st Heavy Panzer Battalion and cost the Germans the element of surprise and initiative? A battle that the 101st Heavy Panzer Battalion withdrew from after having been forced back by the British? Not exactly a good example of the Tiger I's superiority.

But I can't picture the Sherman being a very good tank if produced by the Germans. Or getting the pats on its back it would from being produced by the US. Germans certainly wouldn't have been able to achive numbers anywhere near the US and most likely simply similar to the Panzer IV, 8,000~ Or so. I'd say its reputation would be far different if that was the issue...more a mistake then a good tank. IF the Germans kept like the US with the 75 despite the clear need for better protection. In the end to me its success lies in its ability to be produced in mass and to me that isn't a attribute of the tank..but of the producer/manufacturer

Two things:
1. the 75mm was a good all-round gun, it fired a good HE round and a decent AP round. The 75mm was capable of penetrating the armor of the Panzer IV and the StuG-series of assault guns, the majority of German AFVs. It was never meant to combat the Tiger I anymore than the Panzer IV was meant to combat the IS-2. The Sherman should only ever be compared to the Panzer IV and Panther, who both filled the same role (main medium tank) as the Sherman.

2. The Sherman was good because it was derived from the American expertise in heavy vehicle design. It was an easy to maintain and repair design that was, at least, equal to its' peers in other armies (the T-34, Panzer IV and Cromwell) and had several features that made it stand out, such as its gyro stabilizers and outstanding crew ergonomics. It wouldn't have been a good tank if made by Germany, in part because Germany didn't have the necessary rare materials but mostly because German engineering was not up to the task of designing a design like the Sherman.
 

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At some point, higher design and technology is defeated by superiority in numbers. Tiger tank does not have 5 turrets

What a tank with enough turrets to defeat five Shermans might look like:

Capture_zps406ee81c.jpg


A more serious question:

Am I correct in assuming that the majority of Tigers were deployed against the Soviets throughout the war?
 
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ltccone

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You mean the engagement in which Wittmann's Tiger I was knocked out by a 57mm ATG after conducting a solo attack that revealed the location of the 101st Heavy Panzer Battalion and cost the Germans the element of surprise and initiative? A battle that the 101st Heavy Panzer Battalion withdrew from after having been forced back by the British? Not exactly a good example of the Tiger I's superiority.

Except that didn't happen.

http://www.battleofnormandytours.com/villers-bocage.html
 
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amalric de g.

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Sorry, what is this nonsense? How is that even supposed to work? If commanders don't report losses, how would they get replacements? Also, there is no such thing as "official burea of the high command" in the WW2 whatever that's supposed to mean.
This "russian hordes" crap is getting ridiculous.


During the war. Archival data that is avaliable post war is fairly accurate.

Which long been known to be a gross underestimate

Rudiger Overmans, who dug up through archival data for a few years, and proved that older numbers have been gross underestimation. The numbers compiled by him are now accepted as the official figure for German military losses.


You are inventing a "difference" where one does not exist. 8.8 million is the number of military dead. Up to 3 million POWs have died in captivity, which gives the second number.

That's wacko conspiracy theories

First i didn´t wrote anything about Russian hordes. Thats utter nonsense.
I reffered only to the wartime.

- In March 1946, the number of victims of the Soviet Union by Stalin propaganda reasons was given far too low with seven million. Thats not lying to the public?

- Since the de-Stalinization until 1985 was in the Soviet Union the official figure of 20 million war dead.

- Under Mikhail Gorbachev some Soviet archives were opened since 1985 and an official total of 27 million Soviet war dead, including 7 million civilians, called.

- 1989 estimated the Russian historian Vladimir I. Kozlov, the total number of Soviet war dead at 40 million. Including all what Stalin and Hitler did and we can´t talk about.

- A commission appointed by Defense Minister Dmitri Yazov Timofejewitsch determined 1987-1991 a total of 37 million Soviet war dead, of which 8.6 million soldiers and 27 to 28 million civilians.

Where did I mentioned a conspiracy, I only highlited the differences in the numbers.

But if somebody wants to accuse people of something, they did it all the time in history. o_O
 

bcoop1701

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German engineering was not up to the task of designing a design like the Sherman.

It's incorrect to imply that the Germans couldn't design a tank equivalent to a Sherman just like it would be incorrect to claim that the Japanese weren't capable of designing a aircraft capable of matching a Corsair or Mustang. The tanks the Germans designed and built were based on the specifications and doctrine put forward by the German High Command which was different than the U.S., British, and Soviets. If Hitler had wanted a Sherman, he would have gotten one. He wouldn't have gotten them in anywhere near the numbers but that is a function of industrial capacity not intellectual capital (design capability).
 
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Telenil

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Am I correct in assuming that the majority of Tigers were deployed against the Soviets throughout the war?
Good question. The majority of German tanks in general were deployed against the Soviet, but the Tiger started to appear in 1943, when the West was beginning to engage the Wehrmacht on a somewhat large scale. This website gives a quick history for each Tiger battalion (the Tigers were conveniently regrouped in specific units). I'm too lazy to track every number, but for what it's worth, I count 7 battalions that went to the Western Front, 8 that went to the Eastern Front, and 5 that went to both. That seems surprisingly even.
 
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telesien

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I have no idea why people are so crazy about tanks vs. tank engagements. Last time I checked, war was waged between many kinds of weapons and all of them had different tasks. The job of killing tanks was not primary duty of tank. There are many other means of stopping them.
 
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Gethsemani

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It's incorrect to imply that the Germans couldn't design a tank equivalent to a Sherman just like it would be incorrect to claim that the Japanese weren't capable of designing a aircraft capable of matching a Corsair or Mustang. The tanks the Germans designed and built were based on the specifications and doctrine put forward by the German High Command which was different than the U.S., British, and Soviets. If Hitler had wanted a Sherman, he would have gotten one. He wouldn't have gotten them in anywhere near the numbers but that is a function of industrial capacity not intellectual capital (design capability).

These are largely two different things and I agree with your assessment that Germany designed and built the vehicles it thought it needed and which it felt suited its' military doctrines. However, the Sherman has many features that are also directly contingent on the US experience with heavy vehicle design and production, the most noticeable being the many clever solutions to expedite maintenance and repair and the, frankly, incredible reliability of the Sherman. These are things that the German industrial complex simply didn't think off because they had almost no experience with heavy vehicles prior to the mid-30's and it shows in the way that German AFVs tended to be over-engineered, featuring novel solutions to common problems that also increased the time and effort needed to maintain and repair their tanks. It also shows in the unreliability of German AFVs, particularly those of the late war.

When I say that the Germans weren't up to the task of designing something like the Sherman, that's a statement about the lack of heavy vehicle design experience in the German industry. They were, for all purposes, novices in the craft of designing and producing heavy vehicles, something that the US industrial complex had almost a century of experience with. It shows in the many efficient solutions of the Sherman, which contributed to its' reliability and ease of maintenance. The idea that experience in a field makes you better at it should be uncontroversial, and German was frankly a beginner with heavy vehicles all throughout the war.
 
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Praetori

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The Sherman was obviously a good tank as it helped win the war for the nations that used it and it brought most of it's tankers home alive.
Saying that it wasn't based only on the special circumstances within the bocage fighting where german panzers could ensure frontal encounters with higher calibre guns is outright stupid. It's like saying that the P-51 was a crappy fighter as it couldn't match a ME-262 at 25k FT at 400 knots.
 
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pamourier

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As an armor officer, all I can expect from my tank is fairly simple :
- as i will be moving in it much more often than fight, I want it RELIABLE (as the Sherman was)
- I do not want, EVER, to run out o fuel, so I want it not to gas-thirsty (as the TIGER was NOT)
- I want plenty of spares, to repair all the things that will inevitably break down (very difficult for Germans, having 100+ types of tanks, many of them foreign built)
- When I run into combat, then I want :
1) to be able to go into good positions, with efficient and reliable tracks (so I would prefer a Sherman)
2) an accurate and powerful gun to destroy my enemies (like the Tiger)
3) good armor to save my a*** if I am a lousy tank commander (like the Tiger).
Therefore, I think that unimaginative and less experiences American crews did not realize the virtues of their own tank, and overvalued the Tiger, because when badly commanded it could still destroy enemies in unimaginative frontal combat.
 

redflag

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Praetori

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As an armor officer, all I can expect from my tank is fairly simple :
- as i will be moving in it much more often than fight, I want it RELIABLE (as the Sherman was)
- I do not want, EVER, to run out o fuel, so I want it not to gas-thirsty (as the TIGER was NOT)
- I want plenty of spares, to repair all the things that will inevitably break down (very difficult for Germans, having 100+ types of tanks, many of them foreign built)
- When I run into combat, then I want :
1) to be able to go into good positions, with efficient and reliable tracks (so I would prefer a Sherman)
2) an accurate and powerful gun to destroy my enemies (like the Tiger)
3) good armor to save my a*** if I am a lousy tank commander (like the Tiger).
Therefore, I think that unimaginative and less experiences American crews did not realize the virtues of their own tank, and overvalued the Tiger, because when badly commanded it could still destroy enemies in unimaginative frontal combat.

So what you would want is the modern equivalent of a T34-85?
 

The_Chieftain

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Jun 10, 2015
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Greetings.

As one of the more enthusiastic discussions on the web precipitated by my talk, I thought I'd register and drop in.

With regards to the Ronson name: Shortly after the video was uploaded, I was pointed to the 1927 advertisement. I then uploaded an annotation to the video that the "Lights First Time" slogan existed. However, do note that I make distinctions between statements of fact (eg you were far more likely to survive the war as a tanker than as an infantryman) and statements of observation, such as the verbiage used on the video: "Ronson is questioned." Which it is. See, for example, http://tankandafvnews.com/2015/04/28/from-the-editor-lights-first-every-time/ , which also questions the common thinking even while knowing about the 1927 advert. I know better than to make statements of flat out nature like 'it never happened', as one discovers that on occasion, it did. After all, proving a negative is very difficult.

That Zaloga's book quotes the "Ronson" thing isn't in itself authoritative. I point out in the beginning of the talk that even reputable authors will take things at face value. Case in point: Zaloga's M36 book decries the name "Jackson." In the panel I hosted in 2012, he does it again. See 9:20 into this video.
. Zaloga said it never happened. Everyone on the panel, including myself, agreed with him. Then imagine my surprise a few months later when I came across the document shown, which said M36 was called "General Jackson," which showed us that what we had thought we had known about the naming of American vehicles for six decades, and was to this point unassailable and in published writing was wrong. If you want an example as to how entrenched people are about this sort of thing, go to the Wikipedia "talk" page for the M36 . Even when faced with the scan of the original document, the Wiki people were unwilling to change the article in the face of Zaloga's book. (That said, I do note that a year later, about a month ago, the main page was actually changed). This is far from saying that Zaloga is unreliable, on the contrary, he's one of the best out there. But I haven't seen a document, neither is one cited, from time period in question, which shows 'Ronson' as a commonly used name, at least by the Americans.

The thing about the Tigers meeting US tankers only thrice in Western Europe is Zaloga's research. See this interview with him: http://tankandafvnews.com/2015/01/27/zaloga_interview/
"So I found three verifiable instances of Tigers encountering, or having skirmishes with US troops in 1944-45. So it was very uncommon. It definitely could have happened, there are certainly lots of gaps in the historical record both on the German side and the US side. I think the idea that the US encountered a lot of Tigers during WW2 is simply due to the tendency of the US troops to call all German tanks Tigers. It’s the same thing on the artillery side. Every time US troops are fired upon, it’s an 88, whether it’s a 75mm Pak 40 anti-tank gun, a real 88, a 105mm field howitzer, they were all called 88’s." The quote itself is a damning indictment of relying on oral recollections too much.

I do note that the focus on the "ronson" thing does seem to have come at the cost of addressing any of the other issues in the talk, be it Sherman's crew survivability or Pershing's development. Which is, in the face of it, far more important than what anyone nicknamed the tank. If the worst you can say is that you disagree with my questioning the validity of the 'ronson' appelation, I think it's safe to say I've achieved my intent of redressing the significant misapprehensions. If you do have issue, such as the question of doctrine, I'll be happy to engage you. I will note, however, that I was forced to condense the talk into only one hour and could not deep dive for the video. Before doing starting such a discussion on doctrine, however, I recommend reading at least FM 18-5 (both the 1942 and 1944 variants) and FM 17-10 (1942) in order to ensure that we're at a common startpoint for the discussion.
 
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Jorgen_CAB

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This whole debate are almost meaningless and it is rather hard to compare tanks because exactly what is it that you compare and in what context?

The Sherman was a pretty good tank for many reasons. It was very mobile and reliable which is one of the most important part of a tank. Being able to bring them to where you need them and maneuver them quickly and safely on the battle field is key to both the crew of a single tank but more importantly to the commanders of the battle. The Sherman had adequate armor for its size and except for its infamous ability to catch fire from bad ammunition storage it was a safe tank. Being comfortable is also very important since a fatigued crew is net very efficient in a fight.
The Sherman tank was under gunned in comparison to its German counterparts, I don't think anyone denies this. But most of the fighting were done against lighter armored vehicles and infantry anyway and the smaller shells also meant it could have more ammunition and could support infantry formations with artillery fire support for longer without the need to rearm.

The German Panzer IV had seen many improvements and was in many respect very similar in capability to the Sherman. In 1944 the panzer IV was a pretty reliable tank with improved armor and a very potent gun. It was slower and not as maneuverable as the Sherman but not a slouch in the least. But I presume the Sherman was superior in closer engagement while the Panther IV was better at longer engagements in tank versus tank combat. Overall I would say the Sherman was slightly superior as an overall tank than the Panzer IV but not by a whole lot.

The German Panther was a technically quite complex tank and plagued by severe reliability issues from the start but many of these were fixed and during the engagement in France and Germany it was pretty reliable. The major problem that the German faced was that it needed to support two main medium tank models in the field in comparison with the allies that mainly used the Sherman. The Sherman also was overall better engineered and was much easier to repair and service in general.
Once the Panther tank was on the field it was certainly a fearsome opponent with crazy good cross terrain capabilities.. It was very well protected and had a very high firepower. The main shortcoming was its high construction cost and that it was for its time a bit too complex. Since logistics is more important than field strength this made the Panther in my opinion a less efficient tank overall than the Sherman despite it being superior on the battlefield. The Germans simply could not field them in sufficient numbers to capitalize on its superior combat effectiveness and achieve enough local superiority against allied forces.

Overall German tanks was more potent and produced with better quality but that did not really matter much when they could still be knocked out by AT guns, TD, mines or aircraft at alarming rates. Most major German armored counter strikes in the later stages of the war had catastrophic results (even when they outnumbered the enemy) which had nothing to do with the potency of their tanks. It was rather the lack of tactical and organizational training on those operations and the lack of logistical support and allied supreme air superiority.

German tanks was overall (in my opinion) the best tanks of the war from a pure combat oriented viewpoint, German assault guns in particular. This... on the other hand... has nothing to do with the overall effectiveness of those combat platforms when you include all other external factors above pure raw combat power.

Also... if you look at many of the recount of tank crews from both sides of the war you will often hear that the German tank crews felt confident in their tanks while the allied feared their German counterparts more often. I really think this at least can be an "indication" to how they actually performed as single platforms.

Soviet tanks was inferior to both Allied and German tanks in almost all respects. That does not mean their tanks was not good. They certainly produced some decent tanks but most of them had severe design flaws. The T34 are probably among the most fabled tank that is seriously overrated, it was a pretty terrible tank for the most part. I don't like to really go into all the details with that tank. Suffice to say the T34 did serve quite well in the doctrines used by the Soviet forces... that does not say much for how it served the individual crew that used them.

Number of tanks lost and produced say NOTHING about how efficient a specific tank was during the war so stop trying!

As a closing note... It is almost impossible to compare tanks from a top down general perspective since both Germany, Soviet and the Allies did create tanks that did both well and some that did less well and did so in different ways.