AP Reduction (Firefly, 17 pdr, Panther)

[Mikeboy]

I admit I dont know enough about modding the game etc to try it out, but given that that german light PAK has 2 ammo sets for firing out the main gun, I assume its possible to simply modify the current vehicles to fire 2 sets of ammo, but that it would "pick" to fire a specific 1 or the other (akin to how in wargame IIRC the french tanks fire either main gun or their autocannons). The only downside is when they overkill a halftrack with their uber rounds and suddenly run out.

There is an unused Ammo_TEST_canon_AP_76mm_M1_APC with 22AP in the game files.

I will be having a look at how the game handles different AP ammunition when I have more time.

 

[Wulfburk]

Just a bump:


Yes, though APDS was not available in normandy in any great number. The British 17 pounder, with the normal APCPC round, was in fact better than the Panther, as shown in here. Stout Hearts - Ben Kite. John Buckley on his British Armour in the Normandy Campaign (pretty much the best book on the subject) also confirms it.

So really, having the 17 pounder and the tanks that have it with 16 AP while the panther has 17 AP is a bit odd. The question should be if the 17 pounder should have MORE, though im sure we all will be satisfied if they are equal... Given the discrepancy between the number of sherman fireflies in game compared to the panther in relation to real numbers in normandy, plus the disbalance of the guards armoured division, this would certainly be a good change...

 

[Max_Damage]

Just a bump:


Yes, though APDS was not available in normandy in any great number. The British 17 pounder, with the normal APCPC round, was in fact better than the Panther, as shown in here. Stout Hearts - Ben Kite. John Buckley on his British Armour in the Normandy Campaign (pretty much the best book on the subject) also confirms it.

So really, having the 17 pounder and the tanks that have it with 16 AP while the panther has 17 AP is a bit odd. The question should be if the 17 pounder should have MORE, though im sure we all will be satisfied if they are equal... Given the discrepancy between the number of sherman fireflies in game compared to the panther in relation to real numbers in normandy, plus the disbalance of the guards armoured division, this would certainly be a good change...

Panther also had a sabot shot which you omit.

 

[IS-2]

Just a bump:


Yes, though APDS was not available in normandy in any great number. The British 17 pounder, with the normal APCPC round, was in fact better than the Panther, as shown in here. Stout Hearts - Ben Kite. John Buckley on his British Armour in the Normandy Campaign (pretty much the best book on the subject) also confirms it.

So really, having the 17 pounder and the tanks that have it with 16 AP while the panther has 17 AP is a bit odd. The question should be if the 17 pounder should have MORE, though im sure we all will be satisfied if they are equal... Given the discrepancy between the number of sherman fireflies in game compared to the panther in relation to real numbers in normandy, plus the disbalance of the guards armoured division, this would certainly be a good change...

This counterfeit source doesn't add up. According to WWII Ballistics: Armor and Gunnery, which is the most comprehensive source on WWII tank armour and weapon specifications, the KwK 42 > 17 pdr. Your source also doesn't specify the criteria for the penetration, eg. 50% chance of piercing indicated value. The Pak 40 and KwK 40 should also have different performance.

 

[I WUB PUGS]

Just a bump:


Yes, though APDS was not available in normandy in any great number. The British 17 pounder, with the normal APCPC round, was in fact better than the Panther, as shown in here. Stout Hearts - Ben Kite. John Buckley on his British Armour in the Normandy Campaign (pretty much the best book on the subject) also confirms it.

So really, having the 17 pounder and the tanks that have it with 16 AP while the panther has 17 AP is a bit odd. The question should be if the 17 pounder should have MORE, though im sure we all will be satisfied if they are equal... Given the discrepancy between the number of sherman fireflies in game compared to the panther in relation to real numbers in normandy, plus the disbalance of the guards armoured division, this would certainly be a good change...

Interesting. Wasn't 17 pder AP nerfed once? I wonder if Eugen would eat their pride and bump it up.

 

[IS-2]

Interesting. Wasn't 17 pder AP nerfed once? I wonder if Eugen would eat their pride and bump it up.

The 17 pdr, KwK 42 and short 88 series were all nerfed by 1 AP in the same patch. I don't think the 17 pdr was ever specifically nerfed.

 

[Wulfburk]

And the production of that panther sabot round with tungsten was halted in in mid 1943, because of germany's lack of tungsten. And what wasnt fired in combat was reclaimed for industrial use. They did NOT use these rounds in normandy.


So why would you consider them for the panther AP in game and not the APDS for the 17 pounder in game then?

Either consider them both or none. Either way, with both not having it the 17 pounder was better, and if both have it, the 17 pounder should also be better, as the 17 pounder with APDS had 221mm penetration on 100 yards in a 30 angle, and the Panzergranate 40 (Hk) (Pzgr. 40/42), which did not saw use in normandy as well, had 194 penetration at 109 meters at a 30 angle.

So again, the 17 pounder AP has to move up.

This counterfeit source doesn't add up. According to WWII Ballistics: Armor and Gunnery, which is the most comprehensive source on WWII tank armour and weapon specifications, the KwK 42 > 17 pdr. Your source also doesn't specify the criteria for the penetration, eg. 50% chance of piercing indicated value. The Pak 40 and KwK 40 should also have different performance.

it of course is 50% chance. And their perfomance, as noted is the 30 degree angle.


You'll find lots of sources saying different, such as the kwk42 having 185 penetration at 100 meters. But according to that same book, its at 90 degrees. So yeah, check your sources. Which i assume you used this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.5_cm_KwK_42


Again, the 17 pounder AP has to move up. instead of downvoting i suggest actually reading what you are gonna source.

 

[IS-2]

And the production of that panther sabot round with tungsten was halted in in mid 1943, because of germany's lack of tungsten. And what wasnt fired in combat was reclaimed for industrial use. They did NOT use these rounds in normandy.


So why would you consider them for the panther AP in game and not the APDS for the 17 pounder in game then?

Either consider them both or none. Either way, with both not having it the 17 pounder was better, and if both have it, the 17 pounder should also be better, as the 17 pounder with APDS had 221mm penetration on 100 yards in a 30 angle, and the Panzergranate 40 (Hk) (Pzgr. 40/42), which did not saw use in normandy as well, had 194 penetration at 109 meters at a 30 angle.

So again, the 17 pounder AP has to move up.

75L/70 full bore rounds are completely superior to the 17 pdr. "17 Pdr AP" has higher pen against flat armour at shorter range because it is an uncapped shell. As you can see it is quickly outstripped as ranges progress. When speaking of 17 Pdr APDS and the Firefly you need to keep in mind it's abysmal accuracy, that 6% of their combat load had APDS, and that the muzzle blast from firing prevented the gunner from adjusting via fire.

You want a realistic firefly? Give it a few APDS shells with 3 accuracy, and no increasing accuracy per shot fired, and reduced RoF.

 

[Wulfburk]

17 pounder AP?

Just check your APCBC, which was the main round (they only used this round plus with 6% being APDS by the end of the campaign) that the Sherman Firefly used in normandy, and its the one we are talking about. And on your own chart they are basically equivalents, and the FH is the same round against face hardened armour and not rolled homogenous armor.

So again, the 17 pounder AP has to go up. Equal to the Panther at the least.


And on the APDS, the gunner sure coudnt adjust the aim, because he didnt actually get to see where it did impact. However, the drop of the accuracy at COMBAT distances in normandy, which was around 500m 1km, was minimum, which is why the british used it in the first place, and very succesfully. OTHERWISE they sure woudnt have used it if the gunner coudnt even hit the intended target. But alas, he damn well could, and its why the british continued used it.


Again, the 17 pounder AP has to go up to 17 at the least....if eugen wants realism that is. And no, it would be more realistic with just the APCBC as the APDS was only used in the end of the campaign.


There is almost a 30 mm pen difference between the 17 pounder and the tiger's gun. However, in game, that is 1 AP difference. The same 1 AP difference from the 17 pounder to the Panther. But certainly that is NOT the difference from the 17 pounder to the panther, them being roughly equals with their most used ammos.

Anything else you wanna bring? Cause for now all sources you are bringing are confirming what im saying.

 

[IS-2]

17 pounder AP?

Just check your APCBC, which was the main round (they only used this round plus with 6% being APDS) that the Sherman Firefly used in normandy, and its the one we are talking about. And on your own chart they are basically equivalents, and the FH is the same round against face hardened armour and not rolled homogenous armor.

So again, the 17 pounder AP has to go up. Equal to the Panther at the least.


And on the APDS, the gunner sure coudnt adjust the aim, because he didnt actually get to see where it did impact. However, the drop of the accuracy at COMBAT distances in normandy, which was around 500m 1km, was minimum, which is why the british used it in the first place, and very succesfully. OTHERWISE they sure woudnt have used it if the gunner coudnt even hit the intended target. But alas, he damn well could, and its why the british continued used it.


Again, the 17 pounder AP has to go up to 17 at the least....if eugen wants realism that is. And no, it would be more realistic with just the APCBC as the APDS was only used in the end of the campaign.


There is almost a 50 mm pen difference between the 17 pounder and the tiger's gun. However, in game, that is 1 AP difference. The same 1 AP difference from the 17 pounder to the Panther. But certainly that is NOT the difference from the 17 pounder to the panther, them being roughly equals with their most used ammos.

Anything else you wanna bring?

Ok. Looks like I have to go spoon feed mode for this one.

17 pdr APCBC has 11mm less pen than the L/70 at 100m resulting in 1 AP difference in game. The KwK 36 88mm has 9mm less pen than the 17 pdr at 100m, this results in the 1 AP difference also. The rounds modelled in game are all APCBC rounds for the 88mm, 17 pdr, and KwK 42. The values relative to one another in game are clearly correct.

APDS is not modelled in game for the 17 pdr, in fact, no APCR/APDS is for any nation. Probably because they were too insignificant in numbers, you crying about not having the amazing musket blast APDS is not going to change anything.

The problem with the APDS was not the drop, but the dispersion, which resulted in 14% chance to hit a Panther turret at 1000 yards, and ~50% chance at 500 yards. The Brits used APDS up until the end of the war? Cool beans, you are talking about a nation content with using riveted, 63mm armour box tanks and spring loaded AT weapons in 1944. And again, the 17 pdr, KwK 42, and short 88mm were all nerfed for dubious reasons. If you bring the 17pdr back up, those have to go back up as well. Again, in the game the pen between the 17 pdr, KwK 42, and short 88 are all correct relative to one another with the current AP system.

 

[Wulfburk]

Have you even read what im saying? Am i crying about the APDS? Read the posts mate. Im saying the APDS SHOUDNT be in game. As i did, on the freaking post you quoted. Get a glass, or try to actually understand what you are reading.


HOWEVER, given that the normal round for the 17 pounder, the APCBC, was in 100 meters, equal to the panther gun depending on the armour of impact, AND superior to the panther gun as the distance increased, as shown in your own bloody source, cleary the difference isnt worthy of 1 AP. Certainly, making the panther having better AP on 1200 meters isnt realistic is it?


By 2000 meters (2187) yards the difference between the panther, the tiger, and the firefly in a 30 degree, with their APCBC round is 89mm, 83mm and roughly 100mm.


Basically, having exactly as it is in game, is pretty much unrealistic. Which is why, IMO, they should make them equal.

 

[IS-2]

Have you even read what im saying? Am i crying about the APDS? Read the posts mate. Im saying the APDS SHOUDNT be in game. As i did, on the freaking post you quoted. Get a glass, or try to actually understand what you are reading.


HOWEVER, given that the normal round for the 17 pounder, the APCBC, was in 100 meters, equal to the panther gun depending on the armour of impact, AND superior to the panther gun as the distance increased, as shown in your own bloody source, cleary the difference isnt worthy of 1 AP. Certainly, making the panther having better AP on 1200 meters isnt realistic is it?

The way the AP system works is it takes the 100m pen value of the gun and directly translates that into the AP value in game for AP at 1000m. So again, the AP between the 3 guns is correct relative to one another in the current AP system. Obviously there are errors as you pointed out, like the 17 pdr having 3 more pen than KwK 42 at 1250m, and the Pak 40 having more pen than 76mm M79 at 1250m, but this is to be expected in such an abstraction heavy system.

 

[IS-2]

Have you even read what im saying? Am i crying about the APDS? Read the posts mate. Im saying the APDS SHOUDNT be in game. As i did, on the freaking post you quoted. Get a glass, or try to actually understand what you are reading.


HOWEVER, given that the normal round for the 17 pounder, the APCBC, was in 100 meters, equal to the panther gun depending on the armour of impact, AND superior to the panther gun as the distance increased...


Basically, having exactly as it is in game, is pretty much unrealistic. Which is why, IMO, they should make them equal.

If the table had an FH section for the L/70 it would be 10-20mm higher than the 17 pdr, just fyi. You should compare RHA to RHA, not FHA to RHA. The 17 pdr is also very slightly superior only outside the game's engagement ranges.

 

[Wulfburk]

Alright, i had not know it took the 100m value and then made it the 1000m in game.


However: That gun comparission you are sourcing is at a 90 degree angle on all of them.


But there are other sources, like the books i mentioned up there, and Germany's Panther tank from thomas l. jentz, and from these values you can cleary see that the british 17 pounder APCBC at a 30 degree angle was better no matter the distance (and no matter the armour targeted). So is this a case of choosing your sources or is it because somehow one was better than the other depending of the angle?