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When did the Firefly/17 pdr/Panther/Challenger (Maybe something else i havent noticed as well) get bumped down 1 ap? I dont remember seeing it in any sort of patch note. Panthers used to be 18 (Now 17), Challenger 17 (Now 16), Etc.
AP Reduction (Firefly, 17 pdr, Panther)
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Since the Allies were only able to press Portugal to seize its tungsten shipments in June '44 we can safely assume that enough PzGr 40 "Hartkern" were available during the Normandy Campaign on the German side.
At the same time 17pdr APDS hit the theatre only End of June/ Beginning of July and only very rarely.
Thus, since ammunition isn't really depicted, Panthers AP being higher than the 17pdr AP seems to be fine.
Ceterum censeo PzIV deserves 1200m range.
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I'm looking at 1000-1200m tests vs. 90 degree 100m rolled and they're at least equal with the 17 being slightly ahead..
That's when you only take PzGr 39 into consideration and compare it to the British APCBC.
Take the PzGr 40 into consideration (which was far more widespread than the British APDS) and it looks massively different.
Ceterum censeo PzIV deserves 1200m range.
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Even if it were more widespread, it still wouldn't be the main ammunition.
But since we don't model ammunition (with some very special exceptions as smoke or the 3,7cm HEAT that make it worth), it should be taken into consideration.
Ceterum censeo PzIV deserves 1200m range.
Can take 6 pounder APDS into consideration too then? ^^
But seriously, if all the panzer IVs got 1200m range, they would likely get a price to match this which might be an issue, personally I would be okay with it to a degree, but only if we took those same considerations to other vehicles with "semi spread ammunition" getting their stuff too, though the 17 pounder should have any "APDS" it recieves if it ever recieves it as a limited stockpile to very specific vehicles (such as possibly only being on the achillies, for balancing reasons of not letting everyone get it across all divisions with access to 17 towed or challengers).
I don't know about the availability of 6pdr APDS, but if it was okay, why not?
Panzer IV with 1200m range and let's say 15-30 pts more expensive than the M4/75 but 5-10 pts cheaper than M4/76 is absolutely fine and would sit right between SPG/High-End ATGs and the Cats.
At the same time with +1Acc compared to the M4's that is okay too, since the M4 got the aim-time buff and due to the low armor will have practically comparable ACC on 1000m due to Stress.
PzIV will be glass cannon but in a sweet spot.
M4/75 will pose still a threat but are far more general purpose.
M4/76 will remain superior in every aspect except for the gun and maybe prize.
Also it would cause German tanks to be a bit more rare overall as it should be.
Ceterum censeo PzIV deserves 1200m range.
Except we do take ammunition into consideration, or at least, that is the way it looks thus far.
Of course, but which one if several can be chosen. That is the question.
Ceterum censeo PzIV deserves 1200m range.
The one which was most available. This notion really isn't difficult to understand. There is a reason why APDS rounds, advanced AP, APCR and the like are not considered for AP in game, simply because they were not produced in sufficient quantities during the time period of the game.
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IIRC according to 4th coldstream guards war diary, 1/3rd of 6th guards churchills(i believe these are the 1s that were with the 15th scottish) were reconverted back into 6 pounder specificially so they could fire the APDS ammunition for operation epsom and also for the first week of july i think it was, so technically speaking, there were quantities of these ammunitions on the front, especially if you are taking the time to convert vehicles back into their older varient in order to use it
. Afterall, why convert back such a significant portion of vehicles designed for "infantry fighting" if there wasnt 1) the ammunition or 2) the need for it?I dont know enough on the german side though to say much with reguards to their ammunition, though personally I think its a rather sad side that we only go with "most available" when tanks would have these rounds to deal with fighting other tanks anyway, especially when we could have a system where the tank could carry both ingame even in limited numbers, always fine with "lesser" vehicles getting a few big hits just to make sure their opponents are not playing silly.
Would this not require a new unit though? And by APDS ammunition I was mostly referring to the 17 Pounder, and less the 6 Pounder.IIRC according to 4th coldstream guards war diary, 1/3rd of 6th guards churchills(i believe these are the 1s that were with the 15th scottish) were reconverted back into 6 pounder specificially so they could fire the APDS ammunition for operation epsom and also for the first week of july i think it was, so technically speaking, there were quantities of these ammunitions on the front, especially if you are taking the time to convert vehicles back into their older varient in order to use it
I dont know enough on the german side though to say much with reguards to their ammunition, though personally I think its a rather sad side that we only go with "most available" when tanks would have these rounds to deal with fighting other tanks anyway, especially when we could have a system where the tank could carry both ingame even in limited numbers, always fine with "lesser" vehicles getting a few big hits just to make sure their opponents are not playing silly.
I admit I dont know enough about modding the game etc to try it out, but given that that german light PAK has 2 ammo sets for firing out the main gun, I assume its possible to simply modify the current vehicles to fire 2 sets of ammo, but that it would "pick" to fire a specific 1 or the other (akin to how in wargame IIRC the french tanks fire either main gun or their autocannons). The only downside is when they overkill a halftrack with their uber rounds and suddenly run out.
This is true, but it would also likely require a price increase, which I am uncertain how much that would help.
I think APCR ammo could be modeled as another shell type that is always turned off by default/whenever standard AP is on. So you could prevent it being wasted by having it off by default, which is realistic since it was special ammunition and wouldn't thrown about willy-nilly at half tracks or anything that wasn't a heavy tank.
not like people use the churchill IV to begin with. Giving it APDS ammo would make it more attractive compared to the HE churchill mk 6.