AoN: Balkan thread

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not through a war, since then greece could lose land to england/france, which isnt something that should happen in the game unless the player decides to do so deliberately, not through an event. there could be an event for massive revolts though (due to foreign power underground intervention). But i really dont see how this will be practical, since the crimean war may take forever to end, and by that time if turkey is crumbling it will be in war with every other nation, spain for example may declare war, or the italian states for oportunist reasons, this wouldnt go unchecked if it had happened but do you seriously propose that we have england/france declare war on everyone who joins in against turkey?

 

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a compromise might be to use the 'desertions' command - the troops lost representing the military being grounded.

stephanos

 

[Jayavarman]

Originally posted by stephanos
a compromise might be to use the 'desertions' command - the troops lost representing the military being grounded.

stephanos

Sounds good. Any other suggestions? What I wanted was a peace command, but there seems to be none.

 

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how exactly is the crimean war scripted? will it be inevitable that it happens, and if it happens will it be inevitable that both england and france declare war on russia? and for how many years will any event for limiting greece's capability to attack be in place? and what if serbia or romania attack the othoman empire then?

afterall by then greece- if its player controlled- will probably have taken a lot of provinces from the othomans, so isnt it a bit risky to have a really scripted event for such a war? what if russia has just signed a truce with the othomans?

 

[Styrbiorn]

We don't know how to simulate the Crimean War, but we are planning on it. The guy writing the Russian events will prolly come up wtith something.

 

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Any comments on my comments?

 

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i doubt that muslim greeks saw themselves as greeks, they probably just saw themselves as muslims....

 

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emir you dont make any sense. furthermore if they werent seen as 100% greek and identified by that they would have been kicked out of greece with the Lozan Treaty, which clearly states that no turkish people are allowed to stay in greece after 1922 (exchange of populations).

also a note on recent events: by the lozan treaty it is clearly stated that turkey has no power over the muslim populations in greece (i.e those in greek thrace) and it is forbiden to try to acquire one. what a suprise that turkey again is acting against international treaties

 

[Jayavarman]

I think that the war should be a choice thing. If Russia chooses to declare war on the Ottomans, then ENG and FRA can choose to declare war on Russia, etc. etc.

 

[Jayavarman]

Originally posted by emir
i doubt that muslim greeks saw themselves as greeks, they probably just saw themselves as muslims....

I agree, though of course I'm not sure. I need to do some research. Anyways, language was not a major thing since many Turkish-speaking Greeks were exchanged in the 1920s.

 

[unmerged(1302)]

Originally posted by Phillip V

I agree, though of course I'm not sure. I need to do some research. Anyways, language was not a major thing since many Turkish-speaking Greeks were exchanged in the 1920s.

1920 is far from 1820. I'm trying to make a point that if the provinces in Greece are converted to islam, they won't fight for independence as hard. Russia wouldn't get involved as heavily as well, because they had no interest protecting Muslims, even if they were Slavs.

BTW, 5 game in row Turkey comes to an end around 1835-1838. I tell you, those revolts are unstoppable.

 

[Styrbiorn]

Originally posted by Crook


1920 is far from 1820. I'm trying to make a point that if the provinces in Greece are converted to islam, they won't fight for independence as hard. Russia wouldn't get involved as heavily as well, because they had no interest protecting Muslims, even if they were Slavs.

BTW, 5 game in row Turkey comes to an end around 1835-1838. I tell you, those revolts are unstoppable.

The Ottoman revolts have been tweaked. No need of reporting that anymore

Anyway, as I said nationalism was the trigger of the revolts against the Turks, not religion. Further the chances of the Ottomans being able to convert Greece lied somewhere between of void and nil, but we can't change that. So instead of making it impossible for the Ottomans to convert it, we make a conversion not as lucrative.

 

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needless confusion

Originally posted by emir
i doubt that muslim greeks saw themselves as greeks, they probably just saw themselves as muslims....

unfortunately you are all confusing three things:

first, the way you reckon heritage in your own countries; if you live in western europe or america, you probably use the place you're born to some degree, the ethnic background of your parents, and maybe your language - if you speak one that is not the official language of where you live.

second, the 'nation' system of the ottomans, which was based on religion, subdivided into language; slavic-speaking orthodox, greek-speaking orthodox, etc.

third, when the exchange of populations took place, the sole criterion was religion, period. if you were muslim, you were a turk - if you were orthodox, you were greek for these purposes. so, 'turkish-speaking greeks' isn't the issue, since they 'were' turks if they were muslim. remember this part of the world reckons heritage differently than what you may be accustomed to, and that religion is a major aggravating factor. the byzantine empire had amalgamated many 'ethni' fairly well - it should be no surprise that the one cultural group with which the greeks have the hardest time coming to terms would be the one that does not share their religion.

so, the answer would be no, i disbelieve any muslims saw themselves as greeks, since that religion would cut them off orthodoxy, which is a natural continuation of the greek heritage.

 

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stephanos the Lausanne treaty is the document to read about such matters, and it is perfectly clear: the muslims that stayed in greece were greek, absolutely no relation with turks, otherwise they would have been deported to turkey, that was the echange of populations agreement. it isnt abnormal to see a greek or a serb muslim, since the othomans were the power, so they could force-islamize. on the other hand it is irrational to claim that a christian in turkey is turkish, since obviously the turks werent force-christianised since they were the power. the christians in turkey- if they are greek- are called rum (in other words romaioi).

the criterion in other words wasnt religion, but nationality.

 

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i need more information...

i'll admit i have to read the treaty, but to save whatever credibility i might have left: i was basing my opinion on the book traveling to the island of crete in 1817. the edition i have is in greek. in the book there is a lithograph (i guess) of a woman they identify as a 'tourkokritikia', dispelling a myth from my childhood that greeks and turks never intermarried. the other myth was that turks didn't have blue eyes... mustafa kemal was born in macedonia and had blue eyes. so, at the very least i wanted to rule out blood... i know there are other ways to define nationality; i know that at the same time religion was a major factor in the constitution in reference to who would be considered a greek citizen. my own grandmother come over as a result of the population exchange and these were the reasons i kept hearing. i doubt it would have happened had she been muslim. you know how if you hear a name like 'papazoglou' you know that the family came from pontus? did you know that many turks also have last names in '-oglou'? if religion wasn't the major reason, it certainly influenced the prejudices of the time; but i must defer to anyone with more knowledge, so i promise to read the treaty.

stephanos

p.s. a note on nationality... there is a place in rhodes called 'kritikia' that was settled by refugees from crete, who just so happened to be turkish - so it's not a simple as where one is born either... ioanni, i guess what i'm saying is i need help in understanding how nationality was defined for them...

 

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in one book i read (dont remember its name) author claimed that crete had majority muslim greek population which was forced to move to turkey / or killed when turko-greek wars kicked in...

 

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to stephanos:

a)tourkokretikia doesnt mean intermarriage between greek and turk, it just means turkish living in crete (as turkocypriot means turk living in cyprus).

b) mustafa kemal wasnt a turk, he was what is called "dolme", which means othoman jew. the dolmes had a special status in othoman turkey and still have today, for example turkey's foreign minister today is a dolme.

to emir:

i can only say that your unamed book must be the only one where such an amazing claim is made.

-but arent we getting a bit carried away? this isnt an ot forum, i stay out of ot forums so that i dont have to discuss such matters!

 

[idomeneas]

Emir since I am from Crete I can assure you that nevr in history did the island have a muslim majority. The majority was Greek orthodox and it was one of the few places where turks didn't settle. The muslims in Crete were allmost all greek who were forced to move away due to religion. Some decided to be baptised and stayed on the island.

 

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Originally posted by iwannhs


b) mustafa kemal wasnt a turk, he was what is called "dolme", which means othoman jew. the dolmes had a special status in othoman turkey and still have today, for example turkey's foreign minister today is a dolme.

Oh I see while I'm gone some Greeks take upon themselves to define Ataturk..

First of all what exactly is a dolme? Never heard of it, and we call our Jews "Yahudi", not dolme.

Second of all putting Mustafa Kemal as an Ottoman Jew shows that the Greek history books in high schools really need to be revised. Such claims can only come from very, very ignorant people.

But knowing some Greeks with an artificial and extreme taste for nationalism, I presume you already know this. You are just trying to throw some mud in the sun...


And for Stephanos, anyone who feels Turkish is considered a Turk. Race has lost it's importance. As Mustafa Kemal put it:

"Ne mutlu Turk'um diyene!
roughly
"Happy is the one who says 'I'm a Turk'."


PS
1-Today there are 400,000 Turks in western Thrace, but the Greeks try to show them off as "Muslim Greeks". Although the Lausanne Treaty clearly states a Greek minority in Turkey and a Turkish minority in Greece.

2-According to the Lausanne Treaty, the 12 islands in the Agean were to be handed over to Turkey by the Italians. After WW2 they were given to Greece by soem magic documents..

3-There were a lot of migrations between 1900-1920 to Turkey from everywhere, the Caucasia, Greek islands, Hungary, Romania, Albania, Poland, Greece, Agean islands, Bulgaria, Mideast, Egypt, Crimea...etc etc

Since an empire was crumbling and all the people of the empire ran for their lives to the safety of Turkey, there was a lot of mixing cultures, races and tounges. Since Turkey was to be a nations-state, Turkish was chosen to be the dominant language. The cultures still remain, as do different races, and even tounges. But whoever you ask they are first Turks, then they'll tell you their ancestorial homelands...

 

[Digi]

A lot of Turks I have spoken to also say that Ataturk was indeed a Jew. I think he falls under this label of Dolme. I was reading an article on a website about Ottoman history and it discussed this class of people (perhaps the Dolme, I dont remember) who were Jews in Turkey but converted when this man claiming to be the messiah was given the option to become Muslim or die, since he had spread treasonous beliefs. Anyway, as the story goes, he became a Muslim, as did some of his followers, but this was really an outwardly thing and they never really renounced Judaism, still learning Hebrew and the such.

I guess they eventually became a special class within Turkey, since later attempts to make them Jews were not successful.