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CrasherZZ

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Yes I know that the 20 and 40 width are the standard, as well as the "divisible by 4" rule of thumb. Just wondering if anyone has tried using 27 width as their standard and how it went? Good, bad, a little of both? Although 3 x 27 is over the 80 limit, the penalty would be tiny, and the AI wouldn't be able to squeeze another one in regardless of the penalty. Right, or wrong?

Would like to know if anyone has actually tried it out.
 
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Meglok

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Haved used 26 and 27 instead of 20 or 40. They save support company equipment compared to 20w, and they don't take as much battalion equipment as 40w.

I usually transition from 20 to 26/7 width infantry to give them more staying power around 1940ish depending on my nation. At least all my front line units. And I will go to 26/7 armor as a transition to 40w.
 
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CrasherZZ

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Had some succes with 26w. Never tried 27..

How does the penalty work when you go over 80?

Not sure if still correct but calculation was :

2 * (total width fighting - available width) / available width

So with 88 fighting for a 80 width battle. It's 2 * ( 88 - 80 ) / 80 = 0.2 or 20% penalty
If we take the 26 design on a 120 battle, that's 5 * 26 = 130 (I take the bad case into acount)
Thus, we should have a malus of 16%.

After, checking if it's better or not is quite harder as unit strength is not simple ( 2 divisions of size 20 are weaker than one of size 40 - with same brigades)

So for width 81, I think the penalty would be only 2.5%?
 
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Jays298

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This is very interesting.

I have usually stuck with 20w divisons due to equipment and experience limitations. But this creates some divison spam as well as weaker tank divisions vs 40w.

Does anyone use 26/27w armor / tank divisions?
 

CrasherZZ

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Haved used 26 and 27 instead of 20 or 40. They save support company equipment compared to 20w, and they don't take as much battalion equipment as 40w.

I usually transition from 20 to 26/7 width infantry to give them more staying power around 1940ish depending on my nation. At least all my front line units. And I will go to 26/7 armor as a transition to 40w.

Sounds like you actually prefer 40w since 27w just a transition from 20w? So ultimately do you think 40w is better than 27w? Why - I don't have any experience with it yet, that's why I ask.
 

Zarine

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So for width 81, I think the penalty would be only 2.5%?

Yes, it would only be 2.5% applied to all the units.

the quick math says that it is bigger than the benefit of adding the extra 1 width:
You already have 80 width of power and add 1 => 1/80 = 0,0125 or 1.25%
But then, the effectiveness of the division is not simply proportionate as test and simulation show that 2 divisions of 20 is not as good as 1 of 40. (same brigades)

26/27 is good to initiate the move toward larger division (40 being the goal) and could help as it provide better divisions.
If you perfectly manage the front, you could aim at having a mix of 26 and 27 and ensure you have the right ratio on each tiles. 2*27 + 1*26 = 80 for instance. it won't be perfect for all width values but could avoid the penalty.

Overall, I tend to go directly from 20 to 40 but with a progressive rollout according to manpower and stockpile.



About why 40 width is better, we have to see how attack and defense/breakthrough works.

At each combat round, all division in a battle attack one of the division in front of it.
Let say we have division build in the following way :
20 width : 100 attack / 100 defense
40 width : 200 attack / 200 defense

If the total amount of attack inflicted to a division is lower than the defense, 10% of the attack will deal damage.
If the total amount of attack inflicted to a division is higher than the defense, 40% of the attack above will deal damage, and 10% of the attack below will deal damage

In our case, the 20w will have 200 attack combined against 200 defense of the 40w. Thus, only 10% of the attack will deal damage, so 20 damage
Then the 40w attack one of the 20w, it has 200 attack against only 100 defense as it target a division. Thus 40% of 100 (what is above 100 defense) will deal damage, as well as 10% of 100 (what is below 100 defense). For a total of 50 damage
Thus by being a size 40 against 2 size 20, in this scenario, you dealt 2.5 more damage

Note: the real boost will depend on the attack/defense difference. The combat system has some randomness and a division by 10 for the number of attack, but the idea is here. And of course, I considered "perfect" result on the random elements.
You can find details in the wiki : https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Land_battle#Damage_dealing
 
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blahmaster6k

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Sounds like you actually prefer 40w since 27w just a transition from 20w? So ultimately do you think 40w is better than 27w? Why - I don't have any experience with it yet, that's why I ask.
40 width is almost always the best because of the way attacks are calculated in combat. The stats of a division will be higher the bigger the division is, which means that 20-widths (or 27, or any other width smaller than 40) will not be able to overcome the defense stat of a 40-width division. Likewise, a 40-width infantry division will have a big enough attack stat to overcome the defense stat of a 20-width infantry division despite infantry attack being much weaker than infantry defense per battalion.

Here's a bunch of common division templates to illustrate my points. All stats shown are with max tech in the respective fields, with the Superior Firepower land doctrine fully researched with Integrated Support and Airland Battle.

Also, here's an obligatory statement of "the specific scenarios where you'll encounter these templates and need to make decisions like these are pretty much only relevant in multiplayer, in single player pretty much anything works but you'll have a much easier game if you build meta-viable division templates." I'm just using this to illustrate my points on combat width and designing templates based around stat benchmarks.

A basic standard meta 10-0 defensive infantry with all infantry tech and superior firepower right-left will have 214 soft attack and 490 defense.
1604044491952.png


A 7-2 infantry with maxed out support companies will have 323 soft attack and 403 defense.
1604044564139.png

Meanwhile a 20-0 defensive 40-width infantry will have 364 sift attack and 932(!!) defense. Almost no division in the game will have more than 932 soft attack.
1604044646878.png

For a more offensive oriented 40-width infantry, the 14-4 division still has 524 soft attack and 746 defense. Not nearly as good defensively, but it has enough soft attack to beat 20-width infantry. Still won't beat any 40-width infantry though, which is why the preferred 40-width infantry is still the 20-0 division, while tanks are used for offense.
1604044776193.png

The way attacks are calculated, divisions don't add up their soft attacks before comparing to the defense of the defending division, so even multiple 40-width infantry divisions won't be able to get any attacks over the defense stat of a defending 40-width infantry division. The 20-0 also has twenty more organization than the 14-4, meaning it can fight longer, while also being a cheaper division in the first place due to only using infantry equipment and a small amount of artillery and support equipment.

Speaking of tanks...

Here's a basic 15-5 tank division with medium tank 3 fully upgraded and mechanized 3.
1604045037497.png

Note the lack of support companies other than engineers (terrain boosts are too valuable to pass up) and logistics (saves so much fuel and the supply reduction is vital). Adding support companies to tank divisions reduces their armor value, which can be vital if you're trying to keep above enemy piercing benchmarks.
1604045230306.png

The same division with full support companies has 6 less armor (90 compared to 84).

Note that both tank divisions have enough piercing to penetrate other versions of the same tank division.
Anti-tank infantry divisions, on the other hand...
Here's a 19-0-2 inf-art-at division. It's basically a defensive 20-0, but with one infantry swapped out and replaced with two AT battalions, and the support companies filled up.
40-widths can afford to add line AT to their divisions when necessary because they have enough organization and defense already, but swapping AT into a 20w division sacrifices too large a percentage of the division's defensive stats.
1604045308689.png

Note that this division (AT tech is maxed out) has 86 piercing. It's just enough to pierce the 15-5 division with full support companies, but not enough to pierce the 15-5 division that only has engineers and logistics. This is an example of why little things can end up mattering a lot when designing division templates. It still won't pierce heavy tanks, but heavy tanks won't be pierced by any amount of infantry AT.
The following template has maxed out heavy tank 3's, with 129 armor.
1604045692967.png

In fact, even the medium tank templates above won't pierce the same template but of heavy tanks. Heavy tanks require tank destroyers to pierce.
If you fill out the support companies on the heavy tank division, the armor goes down from 129 to 120, making them much easier to pierce.
1604046270680.png

You can pierce the latter division using medium tanks simply by swapping out one medium tank for a (maxed out) medium tank destroyer and adding support AT.
1604046745457.png

However, to get to 129 piercing you have to swap out most of your medium tanks for tank destroyers, which dramatically lowers many important stats (soft attack, breakthrough, organization)just in order to be able to pierce heavy tanks. These divisions do have one huge advantage over heavy tanks though: the production cost. They cost a max of 10216 compared to 21576 for the heavy tanks, meaning you can expect to have twice as many of these MTD divisions if your opponent is going into heavy tanks. Another valid tactic when going up against heavy tanks is simply to outmaneuver them since you are almost guaranteed to have more medium tanks than your opponent has heavy tanks, even if your tanks can't stand up to theirs in direct combat it won't matter if you can run circles around them and encircle them due to heavy tanks' slow speed.
1604046885719.png


Lastly, here is the most common 20-width tank template, 6 medium tanks and 4 mechanized. 20 width tanks are inferior in every way to 40-width tanks in my opinion, but I'm including them for completeness' sake.
1604047713786.png

They will take next to no damage from infantry except for dedicated AT infantry, but they have much lower attack. The 352 soft attack will fail to punch over the defense stat of even a 7-2 infantry division, meaning they will take a much longer time to win battles than a 40-width tank division.

20-width infantry divisions have their niches though. They're not all bad. They have twice the organization per combat width compared to 40-width divisions, which gives them a defensive advantage over 40-widths in some strategies. They're also cheaper by quite a bit. They make good garrison divisions for coastlines, where they can defend well enough against even 40-width divisions due to amphibious invasion penalties. 20 widths are also better than 40-widths if your country is limited by manpower or equipment and you need a high enough division count to cover every province along a front but cannot afford to do it with 40-width divisions. But for basic division vs division combat, a 40 width division is superior to an equal width of combined 20-width divisions 100% of the time.
 

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Hemothep

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I don't actually see why 26/27 would be preferable. Yes the penalty isn't that huge, but for offense you still do better with 40 width. Even with a lot of tanks your breakthrough in battle will be a crucial stat. Most modifiers work against attacking units and for defending units.
On the other side 26/27 width defensive units are almost always overkill.
10 Inf brigades with entrenchment bonus and a decent general will almost always be enough defense. You could use that extra width to increase the attacks of your defending units, but why bother? That's not their purpose after all. You'll propably do more damage investing that IC in a better air force or more tanks.
 
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Bunnytob

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Meanwhile a 20-0 defensive 40-width infantry will have 364 sift attack and 932(!!) defense. Almost no division in the game will have more than 932 soft attack.
That comes out to about 9.1 soft attack per combat width. And if your enemy has, for example, 600 attack, that's still 6 attacks hitting you per hour. If you're using most of that 932 defence you have bigger problems, because 900 blocked soft attack is equal to 360 240 unblocked soft attack. It's why I've long argued that 10/0 is a bad template - because they do little more than delay the inevitable.

That being said, I have used 27w designs before. They offer a bit more customisability than bog-standard 20w designs and are still much more spammable than 40w divisions. Hell, last I checked AI Germany used 27w divisions and they're... well, good against the rest of the AI.
27w divisions are also quite easy to get as Japan - just slap an arty onto the template you start with and call it a day.
 
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Hemothep

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That comes out to about 9.1 soft attack per combat width. And if your enemy has, for example, 600 attack, that's still 6 attacks hitting you per hour. If you're using most of that 932 defence you have bigger problems, because 900 blocked soft attack is equal to 360 240 unblocked soft attack. It's why I've long argued that 10/0 is a bad template - because they do little more than delay the inevitable.

That being said, I have used 27w designs before. They offer a bit more customisability than bog-standard 20w designs and are still much more spammable than 40w divisions. Hell, last I checked AI Germany used 27w divisions and they're... well, good against the rest of the AI.
27w divisions are also quite easy to get as Japan - just slap an arty onto the template you start with and call it a day.

You are ignoring some very crucial things here:

1. HP per width: Nothing beats pure infantry in this. Well technically mechs do, but they are so limited by IC and fuel that you can't realy use them as backbone of your army until you already won.

2. Time is winning: The bought time is not delaying the inevitable as you put it. It's more time for your bombers to do damage. Defensive CAS are the real damage source of infantry divisions. There's no template that can compete with that. The only case where this is not true is if you lost the air war. If you lose the air war you lose the land war. It's as easy as that. It's also the reason why my inf-Divisions get support AA, even if I got enough fighters.

3. Time is defeat: for your enemies. The more time your inf buy you, the more time for your tank units to encircle and kill the enemy divisions. There is no such thing as winning by defending. You hold the line long enough until your tanks did their job.
 
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Bunnytob

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To be completely honest, my experience with the air war is that AA takes a much larger toll on CAS than is perhaps normal. Divisions with support AA and LSPAA in them can, apparently, chew through CAS like there's no tomorrow - so if you're relying on CAS you'd need to devote a lot of MIC to simply replenish your losses.

Also, what's your point with the HP? In my experience, 10/0 divisions actually take more damage in the same situations than 7/2 divisions do.
 

blahmaster6k

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That comes out to about 9.1 soft attack per combat width. And if your enemy has, for example, 600 attack, that's still 6 attacks hitting you per hour. If you're using most of that 932 defence you have bigger problems, because 900 blocked soft attack is equal to 360 240 unblocked soft attack. It's why I've long argued that 10/0 is a bad template - because they do little more than delay the inevitable.
I disagree with this. The 10-0 not only has more defense, but more org and HP as well. It will be able to fight comparatively longer while the enemy deorgs faster due to having lower base org despite the 10-0 having (slightly) less soft attack than a 7-2. 10-0 is also much cheaper to produce. The highest an infantry division will ever get in attack is around the 525 mark in my screenshot, and the breakthrough of that division is only 134. even a 10-0, with the lowest SA of all 20w infantry templates, will be able to get in 80 unblocked soft attack worth of damage against a 14-4, while taking roughly 35 unblocked attacks. The 10-0 has 67.9 org to the 51.5 of the 14-4. So in a 1v1 battle with the 14-4 attacking the 10-0, the 10-0 hits (80*0.4)+(134*0.1) / 10 = 4.54 attacks per hour. The 14-4 hits (35*0.4)+(490*0.1) / 10 = 6.3 attacks per hour. That's a big, 14-4 division attacking a small, 20w 10-0 and only winning in a 1v1 by a slight margin. In most cases there will be twice as many 10-0s as there are 14-4s.

Infantry will never be able to win on attack against defending infantry divisions of equal width. That's why attacking with infantry is generally speaking a bad idea, unless you're using 40-widths in single player against an AI that can't deal with them or in terrain where tanks can't go. And the latter situation generally leads to a stalemate, with infantry on both sides unable to push the other unless there is a massive disparity of local forces that can cycle their attacks and not allow the defenders a chance to recover. If you're not going to be attacking with infantry, then it follows that you should maximize the defensive stats of your infantry rather than marginally improving their offense.

Infantry is absolutely best when maximizing the stats that it is most suited for, which are defense, HP, and organization. As @Hemothep stated right above me, taking up the attacker's time is to the defender's advantage. Tying up an attacker for as long as possible allows your own offensive forces time to do whatever they want somewhere else, or even get in position to counterattack and encircle the attacker.

Hell, last I checked AI Germany used 27w divisions and they're... well, good against the rest of the AI.
The rest of the AI majors aside from the USSR(who also use 27-width) use 20 width only to the best of my knowledge. As of the current patch, AI Germany rarely beats the Soviets or even pushes them past Kiev, if they get there at all. What I see happening most of the time is that Germany invades the USSR with an initially stronger army, with better generals, doctrine, and army modifiers. They use these initial advantages to push the Soviets back, but each province they take costs them heavily in terms of casualties due to attacking with infantry across the entire front. Once Germany runs out of equipment or manpower due to all the casualties it's taking, it completely stalls out and then the USSR marches leisurely to Berlin.

The second outcome I see is that Germany inflicts many casualties on the USSR during the initial phase of Barbarossa before stalling out, but then the USSR does the same thing when it counterattacks, leaving both the USSR and Germany with huge equipment deficits and a World War One-esque front line that never moves again. Then the Allies land in Europe with D-Day made up of fully equipped troops and Germany just can't contain them in their weakened state, leading to the Allies walking into Berlin while the Eastern front is stalled out somewhere in Ukraine and Belarus.

The only situations where Infantry can push equal width infantry successfully are when there's a big difference in forces whether that's in number of divisions or quality of divisions such as new vs old technology, doctrinal advantage, seasoned veterans vs green recruits, level 9 general with all relevant traits vs level 1, etc.
 
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Bunnytob

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Germany is the one who's attacking now? I normally see a 10:1 casualty ratio in favour of the Germans.
 

blahmaster6k

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Germany is the one who's attacking now? I normally see a 10:1 casualty ratio in favour of the Germans.
I usually see roughly 2-3:1 casualties in favor of Germany, but Germany can't afford the casualties since it needs to keep its divisions at full strength to keep up the attack. Furthermore, attrition only affects the attacker in land combat. As Germany attacks, it will be inflicting heavy casualties to the USSR but losing tons of equipment due to attrition. This leads it to run out of equipment and stall despite seemingly winning in casualties.
 

Hemothep

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To be completely honest, my experience with the air war is that AA takes a much larger toll on CAS than is perhaps normal. Divisions with support AA and LSPAA in them can, apparently, chew through CAS like there's no tomorrow - so if you're relying on CAS you'd need to devote a lot of MIC to simply replenish your losses.

Also, what's your point with the HP? In my experience, 10/0 divisions actually take more damage in the same situations than 7/2 divisions do.

10/0 have more HP, defense and Org than 7/2. There's no way they take more damage in the same situation.

Enemy AA is a problem, yes, but not realy for attacking enemies. Air attack gets the same modifiers than Soft or hard attack and is realy quickly lost if the enemy unit barely has any breakthrough. AA in attacking enemy infantry units is (most of the time) roughly give or take with your CAS upkeep.

Where AA realy shines is in defending infantry divisions and in attacking tank division. A 14 tank/ 5 Mot / 2LSpAA Division will shoot down a lot of bombers, there's abolutly no question about this. However the same unit will be a nightmare for you infantry units, if you don't have CAS up. You need to take it out either way.
 
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Meglok

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Sounds like you actually prefer 40w since 27w just a transition from 20w? So ultimately do you think 40w is better than 27w? Why - I don't have any experience with it yet, that's why I ask.

Others have answered why 40w is best from a min max standpoint.

Whether I actually use 40 is another question. I will almost never use 40 width against the ai. The ai isn't designed to combat min maxed 40 width and honestly I don't need them to beat the ai as a major power. I prefer to stay with 27w which is the maximum the ai is set up to build. I really hope Barbarossa revises the allowed template design to a more plausible set up.
 
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