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Kovax

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I think a well-written tutorial would be a massive help to new players. HOI3's sorry excuse for a tutorial was pretty much a bad joke (literally), doing nothing more than pointing out the various major menu screens and then leaving you with a "bad painting" and no clue where to even begin. We didn't even get to see the bad painting.

Complexity beneath the hood is essential, and can be achieved without burdening the player with tons of information being thrown in your face, yet available if you're willing to dig for it. The tool tips were a huge help, although they quickly ran into issues where the game changed with frequent patches, but a few of the tool tips didn't, leading to misinformation and confusion. The manual wasn't updated regularly to reflect the patches and expansions, leading to incomplete or wrong information. Several of the espionage functions, for instance, do not do what they claim to, such as "Sabotage Production" having no effect on Production, but reducing the repair rate. It's also far from clear that supporting rebels only functions if there are active revolts, so it's a 100% waste of Leadership to use until war breaks out and there are revolts in occupied territory (because revolts NEVER happen in core territory, even with Revolt Risk at well over 20%). When the tips or manual don't tell you stuff like that, it's difficult to figure out what you're doing wrong.

The OOB was confusing and annoying, because there was no need to have the full OOB on the map, and because it became a chore to maintain command ranges between all of the various HQ levels, ESPECIALLY before the lines of command were made visible in a later expansion. In my opinion, Corps HQs should still be on the map to provide incentives for keeping Corps together (and possibly to serve as supply hubs for its subordinate divisions), but the AI wasn't programmed to maintain Corps cohesion (or to distinguish one type of division from another), making it just another player advantage over the limited AI. At the other end of the spectrum, HOI4 was released with no OOB, making it difficult to track down individual units. It felt highly unrealistic NOT to have any structure, and that structure was later added in the patches and expansions, as a result of popular demand.

Basically, there's a significant difference between a complex game and a complicated one: complexity is needed to simulate realistic interactions and relationships, so the game mechanics can function intuitively, otherwise the game is either too "simplistic", or can become unintuitive and "complicated". When it does what you expect, it's easy to learn the complexities; when things don't make sense and need to be learned through trial and error (lots of the latter) or constant referral to the documentation (far worse if the documentation is wrong), then it's complicated and hard to learn. HOI3 had too much of the latter, while HOI4 took away a lot of the complexity in order to reduce the learning curve, which unfortunately made for a less realistic game.

The popularity of several "complex" mods indicates that there is a market for complex games, even deeper than HOI3, but it NEEDS to be kept accessible to the more casual player in order to sell.
 
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themousemaster

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which means that the company (be that PDox or others) would need the staff to be able to handle it. I'm sure the PDox devs didn't look at the HOI3 supply system and were like "we love this! Why doesn't anyone else?", but if they could have done better with what they were given, they would have.

That's the crux. It's (relatively) easy to conceptualize amazing game designs, but given the real world isn't full of a neverending stream of amazing titles (or anything else, doesn't have to just be video games), means that there are other aspects holding it back. Those aspects are the real hell to overcome.

It can't just be that there is a market for complex games. what has to be is a company that asserts that the market can support the financing of the people to be able to pull it all off profitably (and if the modern Video-Game world is any indicator, not just profitably, but exceedingly so).


Don't misunderstand, even with it's faults, HOI3 is probably somewhere around 5th on my alltime favorite games list. But I can't ignore the reality :(
 

JanKaas

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For those reading this thread and new to the game, I can't advocate enough misterbean's excellent written Tutorials, found here and here. I noticed the 1st tutorial is missing most of the screen shots now, but you can download Davy's PDF copy here
Play along once and you understand the mechanics of the game.
 
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Wesserubung

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I still very much enjoy HOI3 with the HPP mod, which provides that sweet spot of additional flavor, sanity checks (why do I have to research rifles for my militia, cavalry, and infantry? It's the same gun), and fun gameplay experience.
Overall my biggest problems with HOI3 are intelligence (just a really, really bad system), the logistics system (ambitious, realistic, and broken), resistance and partisans (whack-a-partisan is just plain un fun), convoys and convoy raiding, and being placed too delicately on the rails to where if the player or AI changes up history somehow the game just falls apart.
That said, there's a whole bunch of things that just are more fun in 3 - naval invasions, research, air warfare, having truly veteran units.
played a lot of BICE. Its kinda flawed with many broken things... The HPP mod.. where can I find that?
 

Rancher

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I think a well-written tutorial would be a massive help to new players. HOI3's sorry excuse for a tutorial was pretty much a bad joke (literally), doing nothing more than pointing out the various major menu screens and then leaving you with a "bad painting" and no clue where to even begin. We didn't even get to see the bad painting.

Complexity beneath the hood is essential, and can be achieved without burdening the player with tons of information being thrown in your face, yet available if you're willing to dig for it. The tool tips were a huge help, although they quickly ran into issues where the game changed with frequent patches, but a few of the tool tips didn't, leading to misinformation and confusion. The manual wasn't updated regularly to reflect the patches and expansions, leading to incomplete or wrong information. Several of the espionage functions, for instance, do not do what they claim to, such as "Sabotage Production" having no effect on Production, but reducing the repair rate. It's also far from clear that supporting rebels only functions if there are active revolts, so it's a 100% waste of Leadership to use until war breaks out and there are revolts in occupied territory (because revolts NEVER happen in core territory, even with Revolt Risk at well over 20%). When the tips or manual don't tell you stuff like that, it's difficult to figure out what you're doing wrong.

The OOB was confusing and annoying, because there was no need to have the full OOB on the map, and because it became a chore to maintain command ranges between all of the various HQ levels, ESPECIALLY before the lines of command were made visible in a later expansion. In my opinion, Corps HQs should still be on the map to provide incentives for keeping Corps together (and possibly to serve as supply hubs for its subordinate divisions), but the AI wasn't programmed to maintain Corps cohesion (or to distinguish one type of division from another), making it just another player advantage over the limited AI. At the other end of the spectrum, HOI4 was released with no OOB, making it difficult to track down individual units. It felt highly unrealistic NOT to have any structure, and that structure was later added in the patches and expansions, as a result of popular demand.

Basically, there's a significant difference between a complex game and a complicated one: complexity is needed to simulate realistic interactions and relationships, so the game mechanics can function intuitively, otherwise the game is either too "simplistic", or can become unintuitive and "complicated". When it does what you expect, it's easy to learn the complexities; when things don't make sense and need to be learned through trial and error (lots of the latter) or constant referral to the documentation (far worse if the documentation is wrong), then it's complicated and hard to learn. HOI3 had too much of the latter, while HOI4 took away a lot of the complexity in order to reduce the learning curve, which unfortunately made for a less realistic game.

The popularity of several "complex" mods indicates that there is a market for complex games, even deeper than HOI3, but it NEEDS to be kept accessible to the more casual player in order to sell.
Just so long as they dont turn out like HOI4
 
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I find HoI 4 a mediocre game in terms of vision. The game doesn't radiate much passion or dedication. An overly streamlined, overly simplyfied arcadey meme simulator. It's development has been one of the worst of any paradox game. It really is the black sheep and neglected child. But this is just my bitterness talking not being very objective.

The only thing I like about HoI 4 is how satisfying it is to uninstall.
 
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phantomrider

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I find HoI 4 a mediocre game in terms of vision. The game doesn't radiate much passion or dedication. An overly streamlined, overly simplyfied arcadey meme simulator. It's development has been one of the worst of any paradox game. It really is the black sheep and neglected child. But this is just my bitterness talking not being very objective.

The only thing I like about HoI 4 is how satisfying it is to uninstall.
You are not alone. I play HOI3 with mod (world war II immersion) and it is still quite fun and interesting.
 
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Paglia

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You are not alone. I play HOI3 with mod (world war II immersion) and it is still quite fun and interesting.

Indeed
Can't play a wargame that requires me to leave my brain at the door... so I bought HoI4 and still regret it deeply
 
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I quit playing the mods* and am playing tfh, straight.

* The last thing I need in a buggy game is to be handed more problems.
 
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I quit playing the mods* and am playing tfh, straight.

* The last thing I need in a buggy game is to be handed more problems.

Some mods are very stable
 
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djconklin

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I'm playing as the Soviets, sign the M-R Pact, fight a tough war and the Germans go with FULL conquest of Poland. This has happened ab't 4-5 times in a row now.

Anyone know what to edit in the tfh game to fix that?
 
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Wraith11B

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Check the file about the M-R pact, if you want to make sure that the Germans only go the historical route, edit their chances to select that option to 1 and the others to 0
 
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djconklin

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>select that option to 1 and the others to 0

That was what I needed to know! Thank you!

Haven't found the file yet, but I found another, light editing and when I went to save it, I get "Access Denied"!
 
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Kovax

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>select that option to 1 and the others to 0

That was what I needed to know! Thank you!

Haven't found the file yet, but I found another, light editing and when I went to save it, I get "Access Denied"!
Is your game installed to the \programs directory by any chance? Windows tries to "protect" you from yourself, by making it difficult to overwrite anything in that. Moving or reinstalling the game to a different directory (such as \games) often solves the problem.
 
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Is your game installed to the \programs directory by any chance? Windows tries to "protect" you from yourself, by making it difficult to overwrite anything in that. Moving or reinstalling the game to a different directory (such as \games) often solves the problem.
Okay, that solved one problem! Thanks a million!

One problem remains: I found the file for the MolotovRibbentropPact for tfh, but I don't see anything in there ab't the Germans going with Conquest of Poland. I seem to recall it in previous versions/renditions of HoI. Such as:


option = {
name = "EVTOPTB1507" # Dishonor the Pact
relation = { who = SOV value = -100 }
set_country_flag = germany_dishonors_the_pact
SOV = { set_country_flag = mol_rib_pact_demanded }

But I don't see any triggers for that to fire, either.
 

GarfunkeL

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Just curious. I still like to play it when I'm feeling burnt out on HOI4.

The best mods though IMO are RPM and HPP. I find Black Ice to just be a chore to be honest.
I haven't played vanilla HoI3 in a looooo-oooo-oooong time. I don't play the game that much anymore but when I do, it's either Downfall or World War Immersion (former Deutsche Wehrmacht Immersion) or the WW1 mod.
 
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Some mods are very stable
Very true, some mods are very stable. However, I am back playing TfH without mods because the basic game (post LUA patch) is unstable. I'd love to go back to my exploration of HPP, but it is built on a faulty platform. Too much hassle for me these days.