Anybody else think the culture/tech game play is a bit too dull?

[sterrius]

More stuff to affect development growth wpuld help.

There already exist this.

Lets say there is a province X at lv1. And 4 other province also at lv1.

You develop with stewart that province from lv1 to lv10 during a 30 year period.

All other 4 provinces will start to get +0.1 development/level. As they try to catch up with the city that is now above their level.

So basically you need to spead development in a country looking very carefully where you're gonna use the stewart.


For example. West Riding, in the middle of england. It border 8 provinces.
So every point of development there is also gonna benefit 8 other provinces.


This means the system benefit from "Regional capitals". Where you put almost all your development points toward it.
And after that you just sit with the Scholar Lifepath that gives a +15% development to all your domains.

 

[Less2]

There already exist this.

Lets say there is a province X at lv1. And 4 other province also at lv1.

You develop with stewart that province from lv1 to lv10 during a 30 year period.

All other 4 provinces will start to get +0.1 development/level. As they try to catch up with the city that is now above their level.

So basically you need to spead development in a country looking very carefully where you're gonna use the stewart.


For example. West Riding, in the middle of england. It border 8 provinces.
So every point of development there is also gonna benefit 8 other provinces.


This means the system benefit from "Regional capitals". Where you put almost all your development points toward it.
And after that you just sit with the Scholar Lifepath that gives a +15% development to all your domains.

Except that is all almost meaningless when talking about cultures with dozens of provinces.

In the end 95% of the development work is done by AI counts and dukes. The only meaningful thing the player can do is beeline the techs that raise the soft cap.

Also +0.1 dev/level takes 83 years to improve a province by 1 development, so... spread is pretty weak.

 

[CrazyMe]

Worse, even if by some chance you did open the innovation screen in CK3, 95% of the playable characters in the map could literally do absolutely nothing, because only the cultural head can make a choice.

- 95% of characters can't do anything about tech.

Is this a good argument? I suspect that at least 80% of human players either start as cultural heads or become cultural heads within 50 years after the start.
And I do not think AI players care much about how good or bad the tech system is.

 

[sterrius]

Except that is all almost meaningless when talking about cultures with dozens of provinces.

In the end 95% of the development work is done by AI counts and dukes. The only meaningful thing the player can do is beeline the techs that raise the soft cap.

The biggest culture in the game is Greek (867) with 83 countys.

if you're improving 1 province directly + 8 profinces indirectly you're speeding The whole Culture Development by 11%.

its gonna be flashy and instant? No
But its gonna add up in a game that have close to 600 years of gameplay.

Byzantines have a province that border 7 others, most provinces in the world also border 4-6 provinces.

Also +0.1 dev/level takes 83 years to improve a province by 1 development, so... spread is pretty weak.

You're really underestimating how this adds up. Its a huge snowball effect once you get that ball rolling.

getting a province from 5 to 10 dev with a lv10 Stewart is gonna take.
23 years. (So your 16 year character is now at 39).

if you use lifepath + Planned cultivation it takes only 14 years.

And lets be honest, a lv10 stewart is a bad one. Most will have a constant 15-20 stewart unless a temporary setback happens.
So its even quicker.

Now lets calculate the other provinces.
lets say there are 5 provinces bordering that province.

to go to lv6 they're gonna take around 26 years ( +0.1 for 4.1 years, +0.2 for 4.3 years +0.3 for 4.6 years +0.4 for 4.9 years +0.5 for close to 8 years).
lv 6 to 7 = (constant +0.4/month) = 20 years (17 years with +15% lifepath ) .
lv7 to 8 = (Constant +0.3/month) = 27 years (22 years with +15%)
lv8 to 9 = (constnat +0.2/month) = 41 years (34 years with +15%)
lv9 to 10 = (constant 0.1/month) = 83 years (70 years with +15%)

Remember all the bonus above will spread to 5 provinces at same time. Instead of just 1.


Basically in the lifetime of a single ruler i improved 6 provinces by 5 levels.
But will not stop there.

Those 5 provinces also border 10-20 other provinces.
They're gonna improve too. A little slower but its gonna happen.

Bigger you make the difference beetween province A and its neighboors faster this effect is gonna happen.


Not gonna say +0.1 research/speed is gonna change the world.
but again, it does add up.

but true the fastest way to increase research earlygame is to improve fascination. Easy as the first lv of scholar already gives +35% and events that give learning are plentiful. So there is little excuse to not have close to 75%+ fascination. (basically learning 10 + that lv).

Development is a longterm plan.

 

[Less2]

Let's say you are improving development with a rank 30 steward. If you have 50 vassals also improving development with a rank 15 steward, you are contributing about 3.8% of total development growth. That is functionally nothing.

Furthermore you can be capped on tech and unable to advance in age due to the date requirement without ever developing a single province yourself. So there is no such thing as a "snowball" effect at all. In fact there's a giant roadblock past which dev is useless.

 

[Paciaire]

I really prefered how MEIOU and Taxes tweaked the EU4 tech system than actual CK3 thing.

Plus some CK3 techs are so randoms, like Guilds increasing Desmesne size? Why this doesn't affect urban economy instead?

Need much more items, more specific items, more immersive items, and faster reshearch pls

 

[Dionysus42]

From a historical point of view I don't like the system for two reasons: it's teleological to the extreme and, like most of the game, leans deeply into great man history.

Every culture discovers "gavelkind" and this leads to confederate partition. Someone else said it's good that they didn't generalize gavelkind, but they actually have through this bizarre tech that doesn't unlock anything because it's the default level. In general, every culture, whether in Europe or Tibet, progresses through the exact same technological/cultural progression, with only some novelties like elephants to separate them: of course, some cultures are more 'primitive' than others.

Consider this: you take a norse ruler into the horn of Africa and make a big empire. Because you have a bunch of provinces, you are now the 'head' of a culture you're a continent away from; and if you have a few scholar kings, you will make the norse people across the world magically know things because your Ethiopian Norse do. There's no interaction between the conditions a culture is in and how it progresses, it's just 'the king had a lot of learning so they 'discovered' an abstract idea like indivisible inheritance in 1205'.

 

[Karlington]

it's teleological to the extreme

Can you explain what you mean here?

To clarify, I'm not asking you to explain teleology; as a former philosophy student I'm familiar with the concept. I'm just wondering how it applies to the game's innovation system?

 

[TheRealAlu]

I dont really see any difference between wide and tall.

You put your steward in the capital and forget about it.

Well for starters, say you take over a tribe at the edge of your borders to expand your borders. Then you want to build a city and temple before handing the county off to your vassal (since we know the AI will never build anything themselves). Well guess what, you can't do that because the county culture hasn't reached that tech level yet. Tribe level tech can't make any additional holdings.

Short of waiting 5-10 years every county you take over to convert it you're screwed. Then even if you do get it converted your tech speed slows down. Because your speed is based on the AVERAGE development level of all counties with that culture. SO flipping a barren ex-tribal county starts it off at like 1. CK3 essentially is the only game where your tech speed gets slower the more people you have, the more money you have, the more everything you have.