I find it odd that when you are HRE, there is no way to get eligible states, especially vassals and such, to join the HRE? I would think there should be an event, or diplomatic "offer to join HRE", etc.
Any way to get states to join HRE?
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It would make sense, but I believe the game avoids options like that because in actual history the HRE was in decline throughout this period until it was dissolved. Given an option to "recruit" new members, the HRE would grow too powerful unless the AI treated the offer like vassalization, and even then I often see the the HRE nab 3-5 vassals before the 3rd reform is passed (IIRC only 1 reform was passed historically).
That doesn't mean nation will never join on their own... I've seen various French minors and a four-province Croatia join the HRE for their own protection. However, this is extremely rare and there's no good way to encourage it.
That doesn't mean nation will never join on their own... I've seen various French minors and a four-province Croatia join the HRE for their own protection. However, this is extremely rare and there's no good way to encourage it.
I think Hungary starts as emperor, even though they don't have any HRE provinces.
I've seen it happen in a few of my games, but usually Bohemia starts out as Emperor (as it was historically). However, Hungary joining it to steal the emperorship actually makes sense. Maybe they won't collapse within 50 years in Iron's game.
Dauth said:
Good to know, but why is that? Aside from "it was programmed in"? That just sounds odd.
States will join the HRE if they have good relations with the emperor, if they are not the papal states, if the emperor is the same religion as them, if they have less than 5 cities, if privileges haven't been revoked in the HRE, if the emperor's badboy isn't too high, if the province borders the empire is christian and the state has a core on it, and most importantly if the emperor is an AI country (they won't join if the player is emperor).
It would be too overpowered. Just imagine Burgundy forcing France, Poland, Hungary and Lithuania to joining HRE. Burgundy doing his normal mission thing while annexing Brunswick, Palatinate & Moldavia. This combined with Italian Ambition you get HUGE HRE with 80-90% cores before 1450...
indeed. Zikmund took the office after his brother Vaclav IV died. The last HRE of the House of Luxemburg.
sometimes when something messes up Zikmund (Hungary) is the HRE from 1399 start. Deletion of the map cache fixes that.
Yeah I don't mean the player should be able force them in, but maybe an event. I mean, I would like an event that occurs relatively rarely and under special circumstances that allows the player to get another state to join. A type of "XXX petitions to join the empire" event, where when certain conditions are met, a state asks to join.
Historically Hungary has a Holy Roman Emperor in the 15th century. It was Sigismund of Luxemburg. As mentioned he was from the House of Luxemburg before the long Habsburg rule as HRE.
Another serious hungarian attempt was Matthias Corvinus. But he only vassalized Bohemia and Austria so he hasn't got enough electors!
But I have seen very rarely to have Hungary as HRE from the AI indeed. Sometimes it starts the 1399's campaign with it.
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I believe if you mess around too much with the dates while deciding where to start it will mess up the HRE. I've seen Bavaria, Hungary, Austria, and Brandenburg all start as HRE even though I go back to the Grand Campaign.
It was overpowered. In HTTT 4.0, the AI would join a human-led HRE, which led to easily unified empires from Portugal to Finland. It was changed in one of the HTTT patches.
Yes. And not just the HRE, also other stuff like wars/alliance leaders and PUs. Fiddle with the dates a bit and the Timurid-Ottoman war in 1399 might just get Serbia and Duldakir as alliance leaders.
I don't remember that...hmm, I must have never been HRE long enough under the old patches. Been playing since vanilla but I never noticed...that or I just don't remember.
I suppose if you really wanted to, you could use the tag cheat and force it - but I know this isn't really the same.
I used to play with a modded decisions file so that the AI would ask to join. It's very simple to do. The vanilla one reads thus:
I simply deleted the line that says:
This means that the AI will request to have provinces added just the same as it does for the AI.
I should say that I personally found it was too easy this way. As I remember it when I got a target nation in the zone (valid conditions, me under 8 infamy, relations above 150) they'd ask to add a province, I'd accept, and if they had other provinces they'd ask again as soon as they had magistrates, until the country was all within the HRE. The decision is clearly not designed for a human player. The AI does not aim to expand the HRE to get the bonuses this entails: it won't deliberately woo nations to get them to join, and when nations do ask the AI often says no - I'm not sure how the weighting for yes and no work, both have a factor of 10 with modifiers that I can no longer comprehend. What I am saying is, the AI is indifferent to expanding the HRE so it only grows a very small amount because default AI behavior isn't conducive to the conditions being met and the AI just fires off a "yes" when the conditions align for the decision, and then the Emperor has a fair chance of saying no anyway. Large AI nations usually run up infamy to a fair chunk of their limit, and 8 is below half a normal infamy limit, so default AI behavior for an emperor tends to make opportunities rare even for bordering small countries that have the same religion and relations over 150.
By contrast a human player who wants to enlarge the HRE and get the bonuses from that can work toward it quite easily. The conditions again:
- the province is Christian
- the province owner is Christian
- the province is adjacent to an Imperial province
- the Emperor's infamy is less than 8
- the relations with the Emperor are above 150
- the Emperor is the same religion
- Revoke the Privilegia has not been passed
- the province owner has less than 5 cities
- the province owner is not the Papal States
These requirements aren't nearly as stringent as they seem when listed this way. Let your infamy fall under 8 when you've got new additions for the HRE, that's not so hard really; you don't need to stay under 8, just go under it when there are new additions to be made. Send gifts so relations are above 150.
It's Europe, so prior to the Reformation it's Catholic adjacent to the HRE provinces and for a long way out away from it too, so this is not an obstacle for the immediate area.
Even after the Reformation the province religions are still going to be Christian in Europe, and so long as the target province's state religion is the same as yours the conditions are still met.
If your target is not a coreligionist (eg Reformed and you're Catholic) anyone with Unam Sanctam can use Cleansing of Heresy to force them back to your religion - once again the AI doesn't think this way whereas a player does.
Revoke the Privilegia is the 7th of 8 HRE reforms, and it converts all HRE members to vassals. It should take a while to get to that reform anyway, and when it's available just don't enact it if you want to keep expanding the HRE. It makes sense that non-vassals wouldn't want to join up - although vassals really should just say yes anyway.
Other than that, you can't add the Papal States, and you can't add a country bigger than 4 cities (essentially provinces), and of course the addition has to border the existing HRE. As for the 4 provinces limit, there are plenty of revolters in Western Europe for busting countries into sizes suitable for Holy Romanizing.
I stopped playing EU3 for a long time, rebuilt my PC, and reinstalled EU3 so my homebrew mod is gone. I didn't bother re-creating it because I didn't play as the Emperor. I'm considering now that perhaps instead of the decision being modified to be OK for AI to request for a non-AI Emperor, it should be an event. Same conditions as the decision without the AI emperor requirement, then throw in say a 12 month MTTH. That way at least the human player would need to stay below 8 infamy limit because the AI wouldn't immediately petition to join. That said, you'd want to mod the decision so once the event fired and was accepted, the country quickly added the remaining 0-3 provinces in the country. It would be awkward to have a country like the Teutonic Order add 1 province but not become a HRE member because they hadn't added their capital, and remain that way for years.
Code:
province_decisions = {
join_hre = {
potential = {
hre = no
owner = { is_emperor = no }
religion_group = christian
owner = {
religion_group = christian
}
any_neighbor_province = {
hre = yes
}
}
allow = {
OR = {
is_emperor = yes
emperor = { relation = { who = THIS value = 100 } }
}
owner = {
officials = 1
}
is_core = THIS
}
effect = {
owner = {
prestige = 0.02
officials = -1
}
emperor = {
country_event = 9493
# set_province_flag = asked_join_hre
}
}
ai_will_do = {
factor = 1
modifier = {
factor = 0
emperor = { ai = no } # Simply do not want to join player-controlled HRE
# has_province_flag = asked_join_hre
# NOT = {
# had_province_flag = {
# flag = asked_join_hre
# days = 3650
# }
# }
}
modifier = {
factor = 0
owner = {
tag = PAP
}
}
modifier = {
factor = 0
owner = {
NOT = {
emperor = {
religion = this
}
}
}
}
modifier = {
factor = 0
NOT = {
emperor = {
relation = {
who = THIS
value = 150
}
}
}
}
modifier = {
factor = 0
has_global_flag = Privileges_Revoked
}
modifier = {
factor = 0
emperor = {
badboy = 8
}
}
modifier = {
factor = 0
num_of_cities = 5
}
}
}I simply deleted the line that says:
Code:
modifier = {
factor = 0
emperor = { ai = no } # Simply do not want to join player-controlled HRE
[code that has been deactived by commenting out anyway] }This means that the AI will request to have provinces added just the same as it does for the AI.
I should say that I personally found it was too easy this way. As I remember it when I got a target nation in the zone (valid conditions, me under 8 infamy, relations above 150) they'd ask to add a province, I'd accept, and if they had other provinces they'd ask again as soon as they had magistrates, until the country was all within the HRE. The decision is clearly not designed for a human player. The AI does not aim to expand the HRE to get the bonuses this entails: it won't deliberately woo nations to get them to join, and when nations do ask the AI often says no - I'm not sure how the weighting for yes and no work, both have a factor of 10 with modifiers that I can no longer comprehend. What I am saying is, the AI is indifferent to expanding the HRE so it only grows a very small amount because default AI behavior isn't conducive to the conditions being met and the AI just fires off a "yes" when the conditions align for the decision, and then the Emperor has a fair chance of saying no anyway. Large AI nations usually run up infamy to a fair chunk of their limit, and 8 is below half a normal infamy limit, so default AI behavior for an emperor tends to make opportunities rare even for bordering small countries that have the same religion and relations over 150.
By contrast a human player who wants to enlarge the HRE and get the bonuses from that can work toward it quite easily. The conditions again:
- the province is Christian
- the province owner is Christian
- the province is adjacent to an Imperial province
- the Emperor's infamy is less than 8
- the relations with the Emperor are above 150
- the Emperor is the same religion
- Revoke the Privilegia has not been passed
- the province owner has less than 5 cities
- the province owner is not the Papal States
These requirements aren't nearly as stringent as they seem when listed this way. Let your infamy fall under 8 when you've got new additions for the HRE, that's not so hard really; you don't need to stay under 8, just go under it when there are new additions to be made. Send gifts so relations are above 150.
It's Europe, so prior to the Reformation it's Catholic adjacent to the HRE provinces and for a long way out away from it too, so this is not an obstacle for the immediate area.
Even after the Reformation the province religions are still going to be Christian in Europe, and so long as the target province's state religion is the same as yours the conditions are still met.
If your target is not a coreligionist (eg Reformed and you're Catholic) anyone with Unam Sanctam can use Cleansing of Heresy to force them back to your religion - once again the AI doesn't think this way whereas a player does.
Revoke the Privilegia is the 7th of 8 HRE reforms, and it converts all HRE members to vassals. It should take a while to get to that reform anyway, and when it's available just don't enact it if you want to keep expanding the HRE. It makes sense that non-vassals wouldn't want to join up - although vassals really should just say yes anyway.
Other than that, you can't add the Papal States, and you can't add a country bigger than 4 cities (essentially provinces), and of course the addition has to border the existing HRE. As for the 4 provinces limit, there are plenty of revolters in Western Europe for busting countries into sizes suitable for Holy Romanizing.
I stopped playing EU3 for a long time, rebuilt my PC, and reinstalled EU3 so my homebrew mod is gone. I didn't bother re-creating it because I didn't play as the Emperor. I'm considering now that perhaps instead of the decision being modified to be OK for AI to request for a non-AI Emperor, it should be an event. Same conditions as the decision without the AI emperor requirement, then throw in say a 12 month MTTH. That way at least the human player would need to stay below 8 infamy limit because the AI wouldn't immediately petition to join. That said, you'd want to mod the decision so once the event fired and was accepted, the country quickly added the remaining 0-3 provinces in the country. It would be awkward to have a country like the Teutonic Order add 1 province but not become a HRE member because they hadn't added their capital, and remain that way for years.
I seriously considered doing that fix as well, just to see how big I could get the HRE - and if that would result in some weird electors too. Once the Christians are persuaded to join, there's always the possibility to either conquer heathens and release them as Christians - or help existing HRE nations against the Hordes.
The 4-province limit should allow to at least include the Balkan minors->Byzantium (for Thrace) ->Anatolian minors->Georgia/Syria. Some trickery would probably be needed to get past largely undivisible non-horde majors like the Mamluks, Castille and Persia though. Portugal/Mutapa/Korea/Malacca might still be a possible area to paint dark green in the imperial map mode.
As to reforming the HRE once it's reached its maximum size - I'm not fool enough to deal with like 1400+ uncored, wrong-cultured provinces for 50 years. It's probably impossible to stop rebellions from fracturing such an Empire before it gets truly started, the rebel issues would be unprecedented. I'd say it's probably more fun to either go republic at that point and see what weirdness ensues, or use the insane bonuses from 250ish member states to intercede in every war of aggression in all of Afroeurasia - while forcing everyone capable to release even more minors.
If you were really trying to get the HRE enormous it'd be interesting to see how far you'd get under standard rules with AI only deleted. I just wanted to add the minors in Europe when I did it, and got bored long before I'd incorporated all the Christian minors, so I can only guess. But as you've pointed out, Christianity isn't so much of a barrier because you can conquer, convert, and release - which I did in a few cases like Moldavia.
I've been mulling over how to allow the HRE to add provinces that are "overseas" but should still be valid entrants. I was thinking that perhaps another decision should be added that says if the owner is a HRE member and the province is a core for the member, they can petition to join. This would create a patchwork of HRE additions in odd spots I suppose, say Moroccan HRE provinces because Milan has conquered it and now has cores, for example, but it would allow the HRE to expand to places like Gotland and if you were lucky, the British Isles, and perhaps later, the Americas. It would be interesting, if stupid.
People say the event to turn the HRE into a country is OP. I've never done it but it seemed to me to have the supreme drawback of creating a country you'd struggle to hold together unless your cores from before the merger were more numerous than your post-merger total. After all, beyond about 25% non-cores for a big country you get overextension, which is murderous for a country that takes a stab hit or two, and by definition you'll have a significant number of non-cores. Granted after 50 years you get cores on everything so if you held, say, Austria, Hungary, Poland sort of region as cores and formed HRE then after fifty years of rebel-swatting you'd have megacores. But still.
Does the AI EVER let a player add a province to the HRE when they are not emperor? I have never once gotten the HRE to allow me to add a province, regardless of relationship, when I am not HRE.