Any recomended read/podcast/video on medieval Persia?

[Traxium318]

Hey! I want to learn a bit about what the upcomming flavor pack could be covering. I searched the wikipedis and some videos but didn't found much info about medieval Persia.

If someone has any recomended book/podcast/video/film whatever I would apreciate if you share It here

 

[The Shacks]

Hey! I want to learn a bit about what the upcomming flavor pack could be covering. I searched the wikipedis and some videos but didn't found much info about medieval Persia.

If someone has any recomended book/podcast/video/film whatever I would apreciate if you share It here

Iran, A Modern History -Abbas Amanat


Really good, comprehensive book but it picks up from the Safavids and goes to the Islamic Revolution. So more Eu4 timeline onward.
If anyone DOES know any good english language books on Iranian history dealing with the Seljuk period I too would be curious

 

[Traxium318]

The thing is that I´m finding so little info on medieval Persia, and I´m really curious on why this region was chosen.

 

[The Shacks]

The thing is that I´m finding so little info on medieval Persia, and I´m really curious on why this region was chosen.

Presumably chosen beacuse its the creative engine of the Islamic world. Its also where most relevent Muslim dynasties arose or based themselves. Persianization was a huge part of Arab and Turkic culture. Taking on the culture of the fertile crescent, like all invaders had since the dawn of civilization blah blah etc.

 

[Vaniljkaka]

My experience has been that, unfortunately, accessible sources on early medieval Iran, roughly from the Fall of the Sassanids up to the Seljuk period, are somewhat scarce. I haven't been able to find any podcasts, for example.

There is a plethora of academic sources however. Encyclopedia Iranica is a fantastic, but very academic, online encyclopedia with in-depth information about most things under the sun. "Cambridge History of Iran" volumes 4 and 5 are also great sources for the Crusader Kings time period, and I quite enjoyed a book called "The Eastern Frontier", though that too is very academic. If you're lucky enough to know French or Arabic, wikipedia has links to online editions of Ibn Khordadbeh's chronicle "The Book of Roads and Kingdoms", which was written around 870 (so extremely relevant for CKIII's early bookmark) and describes the Iranian world of that time.

Roughly speaking, however, Iran during CK3's two bookmark dates are in the periods known as the "Iranian Intermezzo" and the "Seljuk Empire". Looking up these two on wikipedia or youtube would probably be a very good starting point, providing a historical overview from which you can then go more in-depth.

 

[The Shacks]

I sometimes really do miss having access to one of the best academic libraries in the world, ahwell Cheers for the reply.

 

[AHumpierRogue]

My experience has been that, unfortunately, accessible sources on early medieval Iran, roughly from the Fall of the Sassanids up to the Seljuk period, are somewhat scarce. I haven't been able to find any podcasts, for example.

There is a plethora of academic sources however. Encyclopedia Iranica is a fantastic, but very academic, online encyclopedia with in-depth information about most things under the sun. "Cambridge History of Iran" volumes 4 and 5 are also great sources for the Crusader Kings time period, and I quite enjoyed a book called "The Eastern Frontier", though that too is very academic. If you're lucky enough to know French or Arabic, wikipedia has links to online editions of Ibn Khordadbeh's chronicle "The Book of Roads and Kingdoms", which was written around 870 (so extremely relevant for CKIII's early bookmark) and describes the Iranian world of that time.

Roughly speaking, however, Iran during CK3's two bookmark dates are in the periods known as the "Iranian Intermezzo" and the "Seljuk Empire". Looking up these two on wikipedia or youtube would probably be a very good starting point, providing a historical overview from which you can then go more in-depth.

I've got to say, it's super encouraging to see an actual dev responding to this post, not just for community engagement but also just to make it clear that the team is really putting in the research to work on the game. Super awesome.

 

[Gwydden]

If anyone DOES know any good english language books on Iranian history dealing with the Seljuk period I too would be curious

The Great Seljuk Empire, by A.C.S. Peacock, published by Edinburgh University Press. It's part of the Edinburgh History of the Islamic Empires series. I haven't read it yet, but I did check out The Mongol Empire book from the same series (yes, bit of a stretch) and it was pretty good. The official EUP website calls Peacock's book "The first textbook introduction to the history of the Great Seljuk Islamic Empire to be published in English," which sounds plausible to me.

 

[Awesem]

Fall of Civilizations Podcast, episode The Sumerians or The Assyrians.

 

[TacticalRetreat]

There was this game called ''Prince of Persia''. Probably a good starting point.

 

[Deutscher Kaiser]

I do, in fact. The best introduction to Persian/Iranian history in general is "A History of Iran: Empire of the Mind" by Michael Axworthy. It's very well grounded but also extremely readable, the section on medieval (post-Sassanid, pre-Safavid) Iran is particularly good (about 60 pages) and also gives a taste of the culture and poetry of the period. The book also nicely elucidates the relationship between pre-Islamic and Islamic Persia.

A book specifically about medieval Iran is "The Golden Age of Persia" by Richard N. Frye, which is however very scholarly, and in any case Axworthy is the better place to start.

Another great and readable book is "Lost Enlightenment" by S. Frederick Starr, focussing on Central Asia, Iranians and Turks 800-1200. It is a long book, but if you enjoyed Axworthy and crave more, come here.

 

[lucas.ribeiro.rodrigues]

A lot of original Iranian art and culture was destroyed throughout time by the various powers that controlled the region. And as Islam spread throughout Iran, figurative art became less common. So, it is not super easy to find a good representation of what 9th century Iran and its inhabitants looked like. Fortunately a lot of Sogdian and Persian art from the early CK3 time period survived on wall paintings, pottery and garments. We are focusing on going for these first hand representations to piece together what the flavor pack looks like, making it as accurate as we can.

 

[Farbolo]

I know, it does not have Persia or Mesopotamia as it's main focus, but the podcast History of Byzantium by Robin Pearson goes to some lengths to always put Byzantine history into the wider geopolitical context. Especially for the timeframe before the first crusade, there are entire episodes devoted to the realms and the people beyond the Eastern frontier of the Byzantine Empire.
It is well researched and excellently narrated. I can only recommend it.

Sidenote: the announcement of the "Legacy of Persia" has hyped me exactly because of my Byzantophile leaning. I know, if I ever want to have the real Byzantine experience, the "surroundings" have also to be 'right' and 'immersive'. Given how important first the Sassanids, then the Abbasids and later the Seljuks were for the development of the ERE, I am really looking forward to this DLC!

 

[Flockingbird]

@lucas.ribeiro.rodrigues —thanks for the information! What a great way to make your first post here—welcome to the forum!

P.S. and thanks to everyone else, too!

 

[Trinita132]

This dude's book may be interesting.

According to wikipedia : He wrote a geographical compendium known as Kitāb al-A‘lāq al-Nafīsa (Arabic: كتاب الأعلاق النفيسة, Book of Precious Records). The information on his home town of Isfahan is especially extensive and valuable.

Ahmad ibn Rustah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Videogames]

A lot of original Iranian art and culture was destroyed throughout time by the various powers that controlled the region. And as Islam spread throughout Iran, figurative art became less common. So, it is not super easy to find a good representation of what 9th century Iran and its inhabitants looked like. Fortunately a lot of Sogdian and Persian art from the early CK3 time period survived on wall paintings, pottery and garments. We are focusing on going for these first hand representations to piece together what the flavor pack looks like, making it as accurate as we can.

Does that mean the flavor pack is focused more on the 9th century than later in the middle ages, at least visually? Because there certainly is a lot more visual information on Persia later on in the middle ages, with the miniature painting tradition kicked off by the Ilkhanids. The artform really comes into maturity at the tail end of the ck3 timeline, but there is a big wealth of artistic depictions of clothing to use, both male and female, civilian and military.

 

[Flockingbird]

Does that mean the flavor pack is focused more on the 9th century than later in the middle ages, at least visually? Because there certainly is a lot more visual information on Persia later on in the middle ages, with the miniature painting tradition kicked off by the Ilkhanids. The artform really comes into maturity at the tail end of the ck3 timeline, but there is a big wealth of artistic depictions of clothing to use, both male and female, civilian and military.

I don’t think talking about the difficulty of finding historical information about the first start date means they aren’t giving equal attention to the second.

 

[lucas.ribeiro.rodrigues]

Does that mean the flavor pack is focused more on the 9th century than later in the middle ages, at least visually? Because there certainly is a lot more visual information on Persia later on in the middle ages, with the miniature painting tradition kicked off by the Ilkhanids. The artform really comes into maturity at the tail end of the ck3 timeline, but there is a big wealth of artistic depictions of clothing to use, both male and female, civilian and military.

Part of the challenge is creating a recognizably Persian look at game start without leaning on pre-Islamic references and sticking to first hand evidence of the region that was undergoing this Iranian revival, despite the centuries of Persianization of the Arabs. If we lean too much on late middle ages references, the Iranian peoples have already assimilated a lot of Turkic, Arab looks and vice-versa. While, if we create a strong visual foundation for Persia at game start, we allow for the natural hybridization (or enforced by the player) between the cultures to occur and lead to that beautiful visual blend that we see in history.

So, I guess the point is, we don't need to pre-hybridize the Iranians and Turks visually if we have game systems to take care of that. And if a player wants to pursue the RP of avoiding this blending to happen, they can also go for that.

 

[Videogames]

Part of the challenge is creating a recognizably Persian look at game start without leaning on pre-Islamic references and sticking to first hand evidence of the region that was undergoing this Iranian revival, despite the centuries of Persianization of the Arabs. If we lean too much on late middle ages references, the Iranian peoples have already assimilated a lot of Turkic, Arab looks and vice-versa. While, if we create a strong visual foundation for Persia at game start, we allow for the natural hybridization (or enforced by the player) between the cultures to occur and lead to that beautiful visual blend that we see in history.

So, I guess the point is, we don't need to pre-hybridize the Iranians and Turks visually if we have game systems to take care of that. And if a player wants to pursue the RP of avoiding this blending to happen, they can also go for that.

Thanks for the follow up. I suppose I didn't realize how much the Persian miniature tradition represents Turkicized clothing.

 

[Scrambles]

While, if we create a strong visual foundation for Persia at game start, we allow for the natural hybridization (or enforced by the player) between the cultures to occur and lead to that beautiful visual blend that we see in history.

So, I guess the point is, we don't need to pre-hybridize the Iranians and Turks visually if we have game systems to take care of that. And if a player wants to pursue the RP of avoiding this blending to happen, they can also go for that.

Just a clarification,

By hybridization do you mean in order for the blend to occur at the first starting date one/the AI would have to hybridized the starting Persian cultures or that it will be something that happens naturally/dynamically as the game moves from the early middle ages to the high and late middle ages?