any official comment on In-Kingdom Figthing?

[unmerged(38741)]

has there been any official word on whether or not they are going to allow inter kingdom fighting or not ??
I think this could be implemented in a way where on some occasions the Liege would come to the aid of the victim and others he didn't

Right now the code must say if anyone declares war on a vassal declare war on them

it could say something like
if anyone declares war on my vassal and they are also my vassal then declare war if (some formula = true)

The formula in my mind should consider
if aggressor is much stronger then the victim lean towards declaring war
if aggressor is a bad boy lean towards declaring war
if aggressor is loyal lean not towards declaring war
if victim has a close marriage or family tie really lean towards declaring war
if aggressor's might is +25% of the entire realm's might lean towards war
if its +35% of the whole kingdom declare was automatically

 

[Erufailon]

Yep, but this should work only inside the kingdom, if another kingdom attacks a vassal war must be automatic.
I wish their was a trait for lieges to show wether they want to centralize their kingdom or let their vassals do whatever they want to do. In other words, are they strong handed or not. Imho this would be among most important factors.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Too soon to say what will be changed from a code standpoint. The purpose of the sticky thread is to collect your opinions as to what are the top priorities, then to determine how much coding would be required.

In-fighting and liege-vassal relationships/interactions seem to be very high on the list, though, so I suspect that a certain amount of the development time will be put into it. No promises about exactly what will be done, but I think it's safe to say that it will be one of the areas that get our particular attention.

 

[unmerged(18148)]

So we can start discussing here, I think.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Yes...though you must bear in mind that if you come up with a scathingly brilliant plan that would require 100 hours of coding then it won't be implemented unless you send $$$$$ to Paradox to add to the development budget.

Realistically, we can expect a couple more days of Johan's time, but probably not much more than that (at least in the near future). The goal is to get the maximum "bang for the buck" and use that time to address as many major things as possible. That's why adding a ledger or a new interface wouldn't be worth it. You could have a ledger if that was the only code change you wanted (would take him a couple days to create)...but that would mean no other code changes so liege-vassal relationships, AI, etc. would all remain unchanged. As annoying as finding a bride may be at times, I don't think the ledger is important enough. (There are other reasons that a ledger wasn't included in the initial design but I won't go into that now). On a happy note, I have found a way to make some changes for the next patch that I think will help immensely with that (bridefinding/court size) issue.

 

[Nikolai]

On a happy note, I have found a way to make some changes for the next patch that I think will help immensely with that (bridefinding/court size) issue.

 

[Duuk]

Yes...though you must bear in mind that if you come up with a scathingly brilliant plan that would require 100 hours of coding then it won't be implemented unless you send $$$$$ to Paradox to add to the development budget.

Which goes back to what has been said since EU2: I paid for "the Conquerers" add-on to Age of Empires II. I paid for the "Play the World" add-on for CivIII. I paid for every "the Sims" add-on ever. I pay a monthly fee to a website that lets me download new clothes for my Sims to wear.

I'll pay for "Crusader Kings: The Art of Intrigue" expansion. Especially if I can download it.

 

[unmerged(18148)]

I'll pay for "Crusader Kings: The Art of Intrigue" expansion.

Me too.

 

[Erufailon]

But on the Other hand I love and respect Paradox for what they are doing. The only other company that earned my respect for this matter is Blizzard, when I came back to play one if their games after a long time I found lots of new stuff. So, yes, I would pay too if the changes were as significiant as they should be for an addon. I'd be happy to

 

[unmerged(38741)]

Also maybe a warning system if your declaring war, I assume that if i where to declare war on my neighbouring county our liege would let us no if he was going to get involved so he could avoid the war alltogether. then again maybe somtimes he wouldn't let me know and crush me

If i am a count who declares war on another count who has a duke that i do not have then that duke should declare war on me even if we are all under the same king

also if our leige is insane i think he should just randomly choose whether or not to get involved. and also randomly choose sides

I think the problem with a formula system like this is that there may be a need for balancing involved after implementation and testing

 

[Tamas]

Maybe de facto vassal infightings could be created by implementing the "re-vassalize this fellow" peace option, and make the AI seek such peace in X% of cases.
This wouldn't be perfect, but supposedly, the end result would be very similar to what people want.

 

[Captain Frakas]

This wouldn't be perfect, but supposedly, the end result would be very similar to what people want.

Not similar to what I want.

I want that private war become quite commun and liege intervention uncommun (it's more historical and more fun). I'm not interested by the end result but by the war itself...


I suggest another formula :

• If any vassal (or vassal of my vassal) of my realm declares war on my direct vassal, and if I am not in Royal prerogative law, then I don't have the opportunity to enter into this war. (If I really want it, i could create a claim on my vassal at war with my vassal.
  
• If any vassal (or vassal of my vassal) of my realm declares war on my direct vassal, and if I am in Royal prerogative law, then I have an window that ask me if i want to enter into the war to help my vassal. (We could think that in Royal Prerogative, private war are forbbiden.)

 

[Erufailon]

But no liege would want to see a count or duke gaining power in his kingdom, so IMHO it would be reasonable to think that any sane ruler would like to stop anyone trying to become powerfull enough to challenge him (The best would be if he had only 1 province counts who all hate each other ). And I think it's enough of a reason for a King to enter a war with one of his vassals if that vassal attacks another one, the rest of them would only see this as the King trying to protect his loyal followers and keeping the kingdom nice and clean
So IMHO a chance should always be given to interfere.

 

[Tamas]

Yes. if there is an in-fighting where the liege does not intervene, it's a sign of his extreme weakness. Is there any historical example of such a vassal-vassal fight where the liege didn't try to restore order, just so can enjoy a good show? (I know there are several examples of liege not interfering because he was too weak, but we are not talking about that here).

 

[Captain Frakas]

Well, french feudal lords had the right to declare private war until XIIIe century. The right in LAW ! (with the Louis IX's reforms.)
In the holy roman empire, they have it until the XVIe century. (With Maximilian I's reform.)

I think we could understand theses reform by the "royal prerogative law".

I don't know for other realms, but private war were quite commun.

 

[unmerged(18148)]

Not similar to what I want.

I want that private wars become quite common and liege intervention uncommon (it's more historical and more fun). I'm not interested by the end result but by the war itself...

That's exactly the point.

 

[unmerged(18148)]

(We could think that in Royal Prerogative, private war are forbbiden.)

Not even then.

While in Royal Prerogative, the liege can declare war without claim. While not in Royal Prerogative, liege needs a claim. Plain and simple.

If so, perhaps that law should have other bad effects... Events that lower vassal loyalty, for example. Or do that events exist yet?

 

[Tamas]

Well, french feudal lords had the right to declare private war until XIIIe century. The right in LAW ! (with the Louis IX's reforms.)
In the holy roman empire, they have it until the XVIe century. (With Maximilian I's reform.)

I think we could understand theses reform by the "royal prerogative law".

I don't know for other realms, but private war were quite commun.

Well, I can only speak for Hungary, but here, altough King vs. usurper wars were quite common, it was more like a civil war, as the all the time, the enemy was an usurper, someone with a claim to the throne. Sometimes he started the war, sometimes the King wanted a preempitve strike which was discovered in time by his enemy.
But it always involved getting rid of a powerful noble, killing/blinding him and giving his land to someone else. This is something CK can simulate at the moment.

The other instance, where our King had to literally re-unite the kingdom by defeating oligarchs (that's what our first Anjou king did) was also something which fits nicely into current CK system, as those oligarchies were anything but vassals of the King, they were more like Dukes which declared war against their former King.

 

[unmerged(27106)]

While in Royal Prerogative, the liege can declare war without claim. While not in Royal Prerogative, liege needs a claim. Plain and simple.

If so, perhaps that law should have other bad effects... Events that lower vassal loyalty, for example. Or do that events exist yet?

If I am not mistaken, when someone who is part of your domain (whether directly, or through a Duke if you are a King) rebels, you get a claim on their lands automatically. That being the case, nothing would change under the scheme you outlined above.

Royal Perogatory does have a number of events where, for example, your vassals demand you change your succession laws to elective or many of them will take a massive loyalty hit. Royal Pergoatory is my favorite set of laws, both because it gives me great freedom to tax and because I think the troop mix you get under that set of laws is the best. However, it can be a headache having to deal with irate vassals all the time who are threatening rebellion. It's not a serious threat because I just buy their loyalty back up after I say no to their demands, but it could be if there were an effective way of keeping the wealth level of the game down.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Well it would be simple enough to add a random chance that any such vassal declares independence (although I might be tempted to limit that to a human player since it would tend to tear AI realms apart).