Thst another reason im not sure about getting doomsday, if i have HOI2 is there any point? :wacko:
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Colonel Warden said:
Then why are we paying more money? DD is NOT HoI2 nor is it a true expansion; it's a stand-alone game with an incompatible engine and saved games. It also represents the first time Paradox has deviated from it's long term support of its games, which is a very disturbing trend.
And I can think of several games by quality publishers that have run concurrent patches for it's expansion and non-expansion versions. There is only one reason I can see for that to be Paradox policy, and that is to force users to pay more money for improvements and corrections that should have been there to begin with.
Paradox games when released are buggy - little more than beta versions. We knew that, and bought them becuase Paradox HAD a tradition of, with enough time, patching it to a truely stellar game. In the end, we got the game we paid for.
Now, after Diplomacy and DD, I'm seeing a very disturbing pattern of games made still as buggy and full of flaws as ever, and then either abadoned, or we're asked for more money to fix those flaws. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. I guess we'll have to wait and see if DD is abandoned too, and I know myself and many others are not buying another Paradox game until then. Paradox has our faith no more.
Doomsday is Hearts of Iron II - it says so on the box and much of the content is the same. It's a similar upgrade as from HoI 1 to HoI II. When the latter edition appeared then development of HoI 1 stopped. Now that a new edition of this line has appeared, development of the previous edition has stopped. This policy is neither new nor remarkable. Nor is the compatibility of save games a new issue - these are not even supported between patches of the same edition.Ericus1 said:
Andrew
Colonel Warden said:
Its a fairly standard tactic, release a standalone ADDON, with minimal work, and force the players in buying that ADDON, and support only the ADDON.
Keep milking the cow, Paradox team.
I Agree Totatly!
I have complained about RESOURCE GAME BUGS right from the start of HOI 2 version 1 to 1.3b an they have yet to fix this MAJOR BUG. I have warned off all my friend to don't buy this game or any new games from Paradox till I see a change in the way there patching there games. I was encourage with the patches for HOI 1, but they still left the players hanging with the airstack change that did not work. I realize they have tackled a big subject but there is no reason any one should have to pay them to play test there game. I love WWII games and have many of them from board games to computer games but this one is really flawed.
I will not continue to be a BETA TESTER for NOTHING!
They should be
o at producing such a game in my opion and shame on me if I get bitten twice but a third time which NO WAY!
Sincerely,
SkyElf
Ericus1 said:
I have complained about RESOURCE GAME BUGS right from the start of HOI 2 version 1 to 1.3b an they have yet to fix this MAJOR BUG. I have warned off all my friend to don't buy this game or any new games from Paradox till I see a change in the way there patching there games. I was encourage with the patches for HOI 1, but they still left the players hanging with the airstack change that did not work. I realize they have tackled a big subject but there is no reason any one should have to pay them to play test there game. I love WWII games and have many of them from board games to computer games but this one is really flawed.
I will not continue to be a BETA TESTER for NOTHING!
They should be
o at producing such a game in my opion and shame on me if I get bitten twice but a third time which NO WAY!Sincerely,
SkyElf
Someone has modded the air stacking in HoI 1.6c so, if you want to micro-manage your convoys, HoI 1 is worth a second look.SkyElf said:
I'll take a look at the resource issue in HoI 2. But, as and when a fix appears, it will be in the latest edition and that is now HoI II Doomsday.
Andrew
Colonel Warden said:
Please let me add: If you want to micromanage convoys and see your navies slaughtered them
Long Lance said:
Remove Air Stacking Penalty
Amen....couldn´t say it better.....Ericus1 said:
The strange thing is......is it so hard (or much work) for Paradox to give HoI2 a last small 1.3c Patch ???
Sure not !!! A small bugfix.....and let HoI2 Rest in Peace (RiP) !! So nobody could complain about an unfinished Produkt, and nobody would cry about, that only DD will get further patches.
But now, HoI2 seemes very unfinished. Sure it isnt possible to give all player demands right...and give everything into HoI2 (...do this for DD thats ok), but pleeease.....such an simple Bug like the GDE Bug....has no place in the last offical Patch (Enhancement) of such an great game like HoI2.
Its a shame for a Company like Paradox, who has became famous for its Customer friendliness....to let all Customers of an full price Game ( 50.- ) behind, with an ,for Pdox, easy to kill bug.
Its a shame to let a Customer search for 2 offical Patches (1.3a and 1.3b) and then for 2 other unoffical Patches....and all that without the search-engine of this site. BTW when will we get it back .....its now more than a year, without it !!!! Is Pdox so poor, they havent enough Money to provide that little Server-Power, to give us the Search Funktion back, which is seen on every other Forum on the whole internet ??
If so, give us an "Make a donation for a new Pdox-Server" Button.... I am sure, Paradox Customers will pay it for you.
AT least, they are accustomed to pay for paradox achievements. And back to the missed last Patch for HoI2. Thats now very far from Customer friendliness....thats more like:
We dont give you that Patch, because we want another 20.- from you. So it seems Pdox need Money for Patching a game. Nothing wrong with that, but where did end such a thing ?
With the 5. Addon of HoI2..... -> "HoI2-The last Battle (2009-2029)" for 19.99 ?
I hope no Moderator will close this Thread for "getting off-topic"..... like the last Thread of this Theme..
http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=245720&page=2
BTW in this thread, you find the offical word from lothos, that there will be no more patch for HoI2. It´s a thread worth of reading....
@Colonel Warden
Oh and btw, as i said in the linked thread.....
The same for the "hated" Microsoft Products....
Colonel Warden said:
Well, that is great then if someone somewhere did the job.
@Warden , that is not personnal attack against you or the PI team, but if yo uwant to think 2/3 minutes, the situation is the following :
I buy a game, that game is obviously and according to the society who sell the game not finish, patch have to come AFTER the people who bought give feedback, and eventually thos patches will be constituate of work made by single individual or teams for free and without the minimum decency given by the GNU, mean an intellectual property of the source.
So how to make it short : PI is simply using work made by others (players or moders) and ask them to pay (yo have to buy it if you want to mod it). It was fair with Eu2, because Johan followed it, and he given us personnal improvements made on his spare time. But here it's a bit too much.
About DD, that is simply HOI II modified. The .exe is the same, and patch for DD can be applied on both HOI II and DD executable. By doing so, and as the people who packaged the patch seems to have very limitate knowledge of IT (Wonder how they can work on PI and do the packaging, femal secretary named Barbara Juliette maybe? by regards to the initial in that case I mean) the DD patch mostly apply on HOI II .exe (or you have to delete the folder, or to move it, but not uninstall it or the patchwill not apply at all), by doing so, HOI II is not playable anymore, because the .exe is the .exe for DD. I reported the problem to Johan himself one hour after the patch 1.1 was released. Reaction? Well, appart saying it's complicate, they are working on it, and asking me to delete the 'unlegitimate DD' I got by applying the patch, it was no reaction, and still with 1.2 there is the same problem.
That is not small coding errors, I do coding and by so do errors me too. But that is a commercial policy from PI, they are looking to expand in USA, and by so need MONEY, at all cost. So both HOI II and DD are not finish game, they are in some stage of beta testing. O nthe other hand, why not do so? There is still people willing to waste their money to buy those unfinished pieces of sofware (I did not paid for DD, because the silliness of the packagers, and I do not intend to delete it, because I am still thinking about some legal actions , basically the patch I downlaoded and genuilly applied have modify third party files/program on my own computer without asking me nor reporting to me ... rootkit?trojan?Malware?).
RIght now, that is funny to say so, but explain the situation to a lawyer, the answer will be simple.
There is on exemple well know of a similar system : SUN microsystem and Open Office (OOo).
Sun bought the sources from a german society, and because it was a monster , they released it for free with a GNU like license. It was taken over by a group of people (OOo), and improved amongsthe year. But : OOo is free, and even if Sun sell StarOffice, a part of the money they got go to support directly and non directly OOo.
Here, does PI support directly or non directly the modders, and the beta testers ...... oooooooooooops I mean the gamers? I do not think so. Does HOI, HOI II or DD are release in the public domain with a GNU like license? I still do not think so. So, even I do love eu2, and I still love HOI I , I think PI is becoming too much money oriented since one year. PI survived because they had a limitate pool of fellow clients. They are going to live with a less limitate pool of very volatile clients, because the new clients will not folow up , they will not wait 3/4/5 years to get the patch 1.09 that solve the remaining problem. Anyway the game will be old, old design, not fun, and they will simply buy the last game release by XXXXXXXXXXX.
So Warden, I do understand your point : you have tied with PI, so you simply try to protect them, or maybe to give us some 'we are sorry'. But fact is situation is not fair.
X_MasterDave_X said:
To be fair, the problem is a well know problem and a dirty one.
Search imply to use Fulltext search on the Mysql, that is power consuming yes, but expenentially increasing past a point.
To avoid that, it's necessary to manipulate the queries, it's long ,tedious . No many competent coders do that. If it was Oracle no problem, people love to be Oracle specialist, but here it's simply Mysql ... so not easy to find someone who know what to do, who is willing to do it, and the cost is still important, and alas certainly not worth the result, because the same will have to be made in 6 month or one year, because the JOIN depend on how many rows in the various tables.
So yes it sucks to not have the search, but I honestly think they better to invest the 3 or 4 000 $ it would cost per year on something else.
I'm just trying to get some clarity into this issue because people are saying things that are not true. For example, the last official patch for the 1st edition of HoI II was 1.3a as you will see from the download page: http://www.paradoxplaza.com/Downloads.aspsting01 said:
1.3b was not an official patch and well demonstrates the problem of releasing secondary updates which may make matters worse rather than better. Complex software is difficult to maintain. Maintaining many multiple versions of the same product in parallel would require a high level of change control and process which Paradox cannot support with their modest means. It's better for everyone if they limit their aspirations and focus their attention upon the leading edge.
Andrew
Colonel Warden said:
Except that many are not interested in purchasing a later edition and its additional features. A formalization of the user-made patch to fix the GPW issues of the 1.3 patches would be logical imo. The last patches were simply broken when it came to that event chain, and there are non-stickied user-made patches running around for it.
Just choosing one such patch, branding it 1.3c, hosting it on a Paradox server, and including a sticky to it would be an appropriate end to the HoI2 vanilla saga. Prior to that, and you get a mess for MP and confusion on the part of those who haven't figured out the problem in SP or who have difficulty finding the fixes.
Especially with the absence of a search feature to help people find such fixes, it seems like a minor task worthy of Paradox undertaking.
wow...even worse. I almost forgot, that 1.3b was only a community patch. So PI stands on 1.3a officially....and then you need 3 other inoffical Patches to play ...Colonel Warden said:
many multiple versions..... :rofl: Whats so difficult about to have a last offical Patch like a 1.3c and end the HoI2 Vanilla Story as somebody said before ??Colonel Warden said:
And then another Patch for another Produkt (Doomsday). I think PI has enough logistical Manpower to have a own patch for every Game in the Store....didn´t you think the same ???
At last we have a HoI2 Forumspage, and a second Doomsday Underpage. In every Page one little sticky with only one Patch.....whats so difficult about that ? Come on....
The way, as it is now.....is ridiculous. Customers must search Hours (without searching functions) for all the needed Patches for a Produkt who is in the stores today (for 20.- ). Its no miracle work to do a last a 1.3c Patch to end all the cryings. A minor patch with resolved GDE and some other minor things and everyone is satiesfied.
No its only better for financial reasons....and that only for PI. Its nothing a company could use as a term of Customer friendliness.Colonel Warden said:
Dont get me wrong....i have bought Doomsday. But there are many Customers out there who didnt want (or haven´t the Money to do so) to buy Doomsday. The Company i learned to love (Paradox Entertainement) because of this friendliness is almost gone. We are left with Paradox Interaktive....and a lost main virtue of Paradox....and many dissatisfied Customers.
Something went wrong....if you ask me.
So, all these many patches one needs to install to be able to play, in order to help future gamers, could someone give a summary? It can then be stickied.
There is a last official patch for the 1st edition of HoI II - it's called 1.3a.X_MasterDave_X said:
Andrew
All people need for the 1st edition of HoI II is 1.3a. The 1.3b enhancement should be unstickied because it causes problems when used with either edition and it's not foolproof - you could install it on top of the Doomsday edition by mistake and it seems that that is already happening.BiB said:
While you're at it, please restructure the forum so that the Doomsday edition is the default topic and the 1st edition is put in a separate sub-forum. The latter will be increasingly static and obsolete as players upgrade and it's best for the default HoI II forum to be the latest, mainstream product going forward.
Andrew
Please define need.Colonel Warden said:
Maybe someone could also say....all what HoI2 Players need is the 1.0 "out of the box Version". Because its playable.
What do you want more....i ask ?? Yes and HoI1 1.0 was also playable.....with somewhat good will.
Why a company do make Patches....if all is playable from the box......hmmm
Playable and the stage where a game is played, as it was meaned to be played, are 2 very different things. So if you mean....or better say if Pdox mean that a HoI2 with a (long time solved problem) GDE Bug inside is the stage as the Game is supposed to be played.....yes in this case, the HoI2 1.3a Version is a finished Product.
BiB said:
Thank you, BiB.
There are 4 patches:
v1.3
v1.3a
v1.3b
One GPW fix
The first three are standardized files, whereas the fourth has a variety of versions. I chose Ayeshteni's version, which is in the TRP section, for the simple reason that it was available as an easily downloaded file and it was the first such version that I found.
The first (1.3) patch may be applied to any previous version (1.0, 1.1, 1.2). It should be downloaded then "double-clicked" or otherwise be run. Its like a program.
Similarly, the second patch should be "run" in order to update the game to 1.3a.
The third patch is of a "zip" sort of format. Its simply a collection of files in an archive called a ".rar". It may be unzipped to the game directory to update the game to "version 1.3b".
The fourth patch is a single file. It should go to the C:\..\hoi2\db\events\ directory and replace the existing ussr.txt file.
This brings the game to the most playable possible state as originally designed. Mods may arguably improve gameplay, but this procedure retains the original flavour of the game while repairing the Great Patriotic War event chain.
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I believe such a sticky with a standardized GPW fix is an extremely good idea, as both MPers and SPers have their gameplay adversely affected otherwise. Without a sticky, the GPW fixes get lost in the clutter between rushes of attention.
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Colonel Warden said:
I've got to agree with X_MasterDave_X here. If all that's needed to make 1.3b work is one file, then simply stickyfying my post with the four patches and the explanation would seem pretty ideal.
1.3b was a noble attempt to improve the AI - one which can indeed work.
A disclaimer at the top of the page should eventually be noticed by the user, or it may be easily pointed to by other users when the mistaken doomsday player notices. If its a sticky, its easy to find and point to. No mod need ever say anything, as regular forum-goers such as myself would be able to correct such a person.
Such a disclaimer already exists with the current patch page.
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