Any info about Africa and Americas?

[Olaus Petrus]

I did read all the dev. diaries about non-European areas and I have to say that Paradox has really improved Asia, but what about Africa and Americas? Only official stuff I have read about Africa was about the Mamelukes and about Americas was that converting Sunset Invasion game creates huge Native American empires. But what about Ethiopia, West Africa and vanilla Native Americans? Are those stilll getting as little attention as they did in EUIII?

 

[Swistaczek]

Ethiopia has it's own ideas as far as I know.
Also : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j1uy9NItGw
Basically no major change to America/Africa, still backward and poor (Africa), all I hope is no rebel ping-ponging, that's worse than being backward 200 years.(oh those EU3 Songhai games ..)

 

[Olaus Petrus]

Ethiopia has it's own ideas as far as I know.
Also : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j1uy9NItGw
Basically no major change to America/Africa, still backward and poor (Africa), all I hope is no rebel ping-ponging, that's worse than being backward 200 years.(oh those EU3 Songhai games ..)

Pity I had hoped that Africa and Americas would have had bit more attention, like more playable nations/tribes and more stuff to do before the Europeans arrive, so that you could actually put up a fight and survive. Many nations/tribes survive much longer in real life than they did in EUIII and for example African tech group represented badly West African military (some nations did have cavalry).

 

[GameGabster]

Pity I had hoped that Africa and Americas would have had bit more attention, like more playable nations/tribes and more stuff to do before the Europeans arrive, so that you could actually put up a fight and survive. Many nations/tribes survive much longer in real life than they did in EUIII and for example African tech group represented badly West African military (some nations did have cavalry).

We will have to see how it plays out in the game, but I imagine that there might be some DLC development on the area.

 

[VolitionNewlove]

I did read all the dev. diaries about non-European areas and I have to say that Paradox has really improved Asia, but what about Africa and Americas? Only official stuff I have read about Africa was about the Mamelukes and about Americas was that converting Sunset Invasion game creates huge Native American empires. But what about Ethiopia, West Africa and vanilla Native Americans? Are those stilll getting as little attention as they did in EUIII?

Thinking we're going to have to wait for a DLC for any improvements upon EU3's setup, sadly. There's a vocal group who insist "This is EUROPA Universalis, Damnit!" and insist that Africa and America just exist to be conquered, and any detail would detract from adding in a Groom of the Stool elective system for England.

 

[drake000666]

I think the way colonization and over extension works in EU4 will help so that the natives are not annexed so fast like they are in EU3.

 

[Olaus Petrus]

Thinking we're going to have to wait for a DLC for any improvements upon EU3's setup, sadly. There's a vocal group who insist "This is EUROPA Universalis, Damnit!" and insist that Africa and America just exist to be conquered, and any detail would detract from adding in a Groom of the Stool elective system for England.

I don't understand that kind of thought. While I admit that I play most of my games as Europeans I have had very fun non-European games in EUII and EUIII. However gameplaywise Asian games have often been more fun, because those areas have gotten at least some attention in form of historical events/decisions and have less artificial penalties. The popularity of Asia has increased every time Paradox has added new features to Asian nations, I believe that popularity of African and American nations would increase if there was actually more to do than conquer your neighbors and wait 100 years arrival of the European doomstacks (and hope that you don't get rebel doomstacks which are superior compared to your own armies and ruin whatever progress you have made in developing your country). While set up is still historically bit wrong I think that Paradox did make some good things in Africa in CKII's patches and I'm still hoping that they will carry this spirit to EUIV at some point.

 

[VolitionNewlove]

I don't understand that kind of thought. While I admit that I play most of my games as Europeans I have had very fun non-European games in EUII and EUIII. However gameplaywise Asian games have often been more fun, because those areas have gotten at least some attention in form of historical events/decisions and have less artificial penalties. The popularity of Asia has increased every time Paradox has added new features to Asian nations, I believe that popularity of African and American nations would increase if there was actually more to do than conquer your neighbors and wait 100 years arrival of the European doomstacks (and hope that you don't get rebel doomstacks which are superior compared to your own armies and ruin whatever progress you have made in developing your country). While set up is still historically bit wrong I think that Paradox did make some good things in Africa in CKII's patches and I'm still hoping that they will carry this spirit to EUIV at some point.

Bad memories when trying westernise as a West African nation in EU3. Essentially, the technique is once at war, attempt to find new countries by other nations joining in via their alliances. Then find the one who hates you least, give them gold, and give away a province for the sum of 0 ducats. All this while hoping Portugal or Milan don't conquer you first.

 

[Lparsons7641]

They look to have little if any improvements.

Wait for mods that give some respect to them, or hopefully DLC.

That is when they are done perfecting the succession for east Bremen

 

[VolitionNewlove]

It is sad that the majority of improvements to America and Africa come from the Crusader Kings 2 Save Converter...

 

[LightsShadows]

It is sad that the majority of improvements to America and Africa come from the Crusader Kings 2 Save Converter...

Converting the Sunset Invasion DLC should be interesting....

 

[Dafool]

It is sad that the majority of improvements to America and Africa come from the Crusader Kings 2 Save Converter...

Yes, this disappoints me to no end.

 

[Lemont Elwood]

I don't understand that kind of thought. While I admit that I play most of my games as Europeans I have had very fun non-European games in EUII and EUIII. However gameplaywise Asian games have often been more fun, because those areas have gotten at least some attention in form of historical events/decisions and have less artificial penalties. The popularity of Asia has increased every time Paradox has added new features to Asian nations, I believe that popularity of African and American nations would increase if there was actually more to do than conquer your neighbors and wait 100 years arrival of the European doomstacks (and hope that you don't get rebel doomstacks which are superior compared to your own armies and ruin whatever progress you have made in developing your country). While set up is still historically bit wrong I think that Paradox did make some good things in Africa in CKII's patches and I'm still hoping that they will carry this spirit to EUIV at some point.

I would love to play as a native country if there was anything to do and any chances of survival. People who say it's "EUROPA Universalis" have their heads shoved up their butts. How can you properly simulate colonial empires if you don't properly simulate the natives who were there?

 

[mic-dk]

How can you properly simulate colonial empires if you don't properly simulate the natives who were there?

That's hardly the correct argument if you more detail in the americas. The current setup precisely simulates the natives role in the colonial empires - ie someone just there to be conquered. This makes them supremely uninteresting to play and IMO that should be the first argument. Why even make them selectable, if all there really is to do is wait for 100 years and then get stomped by Pizarro?

I'll admit, I can't see myself ever playing any of the animist/shaman countries, but I fully support at least an effort to make them fun until Ferdinand & Isabellas collectors knocks on your door.

 

[Enewald]

And conquering native American EMPIRES should not be easy.
Only if the stars align, as it did irl.
Incan civil war, Pizarro steps in and uses both sides to become 'emperor'...

Gigantic revolt versus Aztec rule, Cortez riding the wave that would crush the centre of Aztec Empire and managing to capture their ruler... only if the stars truly align!

 

[LightsShadows]

And conquering native American EMPIRES should not be easy.
Only if the stars align, as it did irl.
Incan civil war, Pizarro steps in and uses both sides to become 'emperor'...

Gigantic revolt versus Aztec rule, Cortez riding the wave that would crush the centre of Aztec Empire and managing to capture their ruler... only if the stars truly align!

Wasn't Cortez the one that conquered the Aztecs? And to be fair, he had less than one full regiment of a normal EU game. Even if the stars don't align, overrunning the Aztecs with 18,000 of my more advanced European troops shouldn't necessarily be all that difficult, excluding of course the Aztecs being played a player, in which case they should have a decent chance of surviving.

 

[Lemont Elwood]

That's hardly the correct argument if you more detail in the americas. The current setup precisely simulates the natives role in the colonial empires - ie someone just there to be conquered. This makes them supremely uninteresting to play and IMO that should be the first argument. Why even make them selectable, if all there really is to do is wait for 100 years and then get stomped by Pizarro?

I'll admit, I can't see myself ever playing any of the animist/shaman countries, but I fully support at least an effort to make them fun until Ferdinand & Isabellas collectors knocks on your door.

Well, you might have a chance.

I figure it would be best if it actually mixed a bit of fantasy and a bit of historical accuracy. The Aztec Empire should be represented more as a confederacy of smaller tribes, and I'd like if the entire Americas was covered in little countries (there is evidence of a Navajo and a Mississippi empire). When the white man shows up it starts a devastating smallpox event chain. Whatever country you play as, if you try hard and ride out the initial wave, you should have decent survival chances.

Oh, and to elaborate, the smallpox would basically nuke your manpower and base tax and, if it gets too bad, make your land default to uncolonized.

 

[Enewald]

Wasn't Cortez the one that conquered the Aztecs? And to be fair, he had less than one full regiment of a normal EU game. Even if the stars don't align, overrunning the Aztecs with 18,000 of my more advanced European troops shouldn't necessarily be all that difficult, excluding of course the Aztecs being played a player, in which case they should have a decent chance of surviving.

Aztecs didn't own all of Mesoamerica, they were a tribal confederation that was fighting with other local powers. They had continuous warfare with several neighbours, in order to keep getting prisoners of war for their religious sacrifices. This pissed a lot of neighbours, and there was a lot of hate versus Aztecs in Mesoamerica when Cortez arrived.
Cortez was just the trigger, which lead to the anti-Aztec coalition. Cortez might have had 1000 Europeans, but what history books often forgot that he had probably between 100k-200k native American allies who really hated Aztecs.

There was a local coalition against Aztecs, which led to their fall. Too bad Eu4 won't have enough states in Mesoamerica to make this possible...

 

[Colombo]

Aztecs didn't own all of Mesoamerica, they were a tribal confederation that was fighting with other local powers. They had continuous warfare with several neighbours, in order to keep getting prisoners of war for their religious sacrifices. This pissed a lot of neighbours, and there was a lot of hate versus Aztecs in Mesoamerica when Cortez arrived.
Cortez was just the trigger, which lead to the anti-Aztec coalition. Cortez might have had 1000 Europeans, but what history books often forgot that he had probably between 100k-200k native American allies who really hated Aztecs.

There was a local coalition against Aztecs, which led to their fall. Too bad Eu4 won't have enough states in Mesoamerica to make this possible...

It is mentioned in historic books, the problem with such threads is that it isnt mentioned on wikipedia...

 

[Enewald]

Taken from Eu3 mod MEIOU, how to make Mesoamerica feel more historical:

Spoiler