Do you think this could be solved by giving all minors one free technology option? Obviously limit it so they don't get something ridiculous like nuclear weapons.
Any idea how to represent ski infantry?
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Do you think this could be solved by giving all minors one free technology option? Obviously limit it so they don't get something ridiculous like nuclear weapons.
Mountain Troops.
As a unit already in the game, they should represent Ski troops since they have the equipment for such climates as well as the resourcefulness to actually also be "Ski" troops.
As a unit already in the game, they should represent Ski troops since they have the equipment for such climates as well as the resourcefulness to actually also be "Ski" troops.
Mountain troops are special forces while ski troops are ordinary infantry with better winter equipment, while mountain troops would likely be good at winter, not the same can be said about ordinary infantry.
Mountain troops should be extreamly expansive which you should not be able to afford many of while ski troops would be much cheaper making them affordable by minors like Finland.
I never liked Hoi 3 having a tech that upgraded all infantry with artic equipment when you researched it. To me Hoi 3 winter fighting effects didn't seem to be that noticeable. Regular infantry should be at quite a malus in these conditions.
I reckon there could be a unit in the game Ski/ Artic troop and template for them, that represents not just equipment but training and acclimatisation to such conditions. I guess Fin's would use these troop instead of 'normal' infantry. Majors would have to invest in another template for these specialists, if they wanted to project a force into deep winter fighting, I guess the Soviets would start with some.
With the amount of winter fighting in Russia it's not something that's totally immaterial to reflect in the game. In Hoi3 the balance between Summer and Winter wasn't right, German troops seemed better in Hoi3 or same in both conditions, but clearly that isn't the reality, Soviets had an advantage in Winter and used it to launch offensives, Germans very quiet in Winter. I don't think Hoi3 bought this difference out.
I reckon there could be a unit in the game Ski/ Artic troop and template for them, that represents not just equipment but training and acclimatisation to such conditions. I guess Fin's would use these troop instead of 'normal' infantry. Majors would have to invest in another template for these specialists, if they wanted to project a force into deep winter fighting, I guess the Soviets would start with some.
With the amount of winter fighting in Russia it's not something that's totally immaterial to reflect in the game. In Hoi3 the balance between Summer and Winter wasn't right, German troops seemed better in Hoi3 or same in both conditions, but clearly that isn't the reality, Soviets had an advantage in Winter and used it to launch offensives, Germans very quiet in Winter. I don't think Hoi3 bought this difference out.
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Mountain troops are trained with specialized equipment that enables them to fight as infantry in harsher environments. The Wehrmacht deployed their Mountain Troops in northern Finland as an example where they were essentially "Ski" troops in being. They should never be completely out of reach of minors since they're not trained much beyond their extra specialization in equipment and environment. So saying they should be "extremely expensive" isn't exactly correct since it's not the cost in question but where that cost is applied that matters. So, if their worth their cost in terms of being more capable than regular infantry in certain environments then yes from a game play perspective the devs would achieve a purpose to having a distinct infantry type on the field given the scope of HOI IV. Given the new Battalion Building Division Designer, I'm a bit curious how you could build a proper Airborne, Mountain, or Marine Division.
Special Forces is something else entirely and much smaller units such as British Commandos, SAS, OSS, or the Brandenburg Regiment. There is a lot more rigorous training involved with the actual Special Forces that are doing a lot more with a lot fewer man power to do special objectives not meant for larger infantry units to be handling but much smaller precise executions.
Just out of curiosity during the Finnish winter war what percentage of Finland's troops would have been equipped with skis? would it have been as high as 80% ?
A lot of the mods had ski troops added I liked having them for playing as Finland. The main advantage Ski troops should have over other winter equipped Infantry is better mobility in frozen conditions. During the summer their stats should be the same as infantry.
A lot of the mods had ski troops added I liked having them for playing as Finland. The main advantage Ski troops should have over other winter equipped Infantry is better mobility in frozen conditions. During the summer their stats should be the same as infantry.
Presumably Finland and other Scandinavian countries did get the tech "free" at the start of the game. The problem with HOI3 was that the majors could research every tech, so SOV could get the tech and FIN would have no advantage in the Winter War.
Personally, I think MTN is perfectly good for representing ski troops. They are not just ordinary infantry with parkas, and a pair of skis. Their other equipment and tactics are based around operating in a harsh environment. Remember we are talking about a Division, not a platoon of ski troops. What artillery, mortars, heavy machine guns did the FIN forces use - were these light to take advantage of the mobility of the infantry, to allow guerilla type tactics? What was their logistic capability, and how did they handle getting supplies to the forward battalions in the artic conditions? What type of vehicles were used, or did they use dog sleds etc.
MTN in HOI3 were designed to cover a range of Div types, from the alpinists and artic specialists, to jungle specialists - with MTN having bonuses for fighting in jungle provinces. Different weather, but similar situation of operating in remote situations, low infra, using ambush tactics. Obviously it was stretching it a bit that JAP could have a MTN Div which could fight well in the plains of Siberia, the mountains of Yunnan or the jungles of Burma.
MTN surely would be ideal for FIN to give them the clear edge against the SOV INF in the Winter War. Did the starting OOBs just give FIN normal INF?
I'm not clear that MTN are "special forces" given they are Div strength, they are hardly commandos. And if their equipment is "light" (less heavy weapons) and reliant more on pack animals than trucks etc. they should not be very expensive in IC terms to build. This was probably done to stop majors spamming them.
Hopefully HOI4 might reflect this better with a split between the equipment built in factories and the training of the men. And given that every kid in some countries learns to ski and are used to the severe artic conditions, then perhaps the way to handle the situation is to make training of MTN difficult for all countries, except for Scandinavia, Switzerland, Nepal, Tibet etc. Then these countries get a clear advantage operating in their own territory against regular INF invading them.
Most Finns back in the day were pretty much just ordinary conscripts with no super special designed extra light equipment for operations. Often clothes (and even skis) brought from home due major shortages of standard issue while firearms varied old Maxims to Finnish Mosin rifles to Russian Mosin rifles to anything imaginable, surplus or not. It is simply general outcome of living in very agricultural society on latitude where temperatures usually drop below freezing in winters against ill-equipped and prepared enemy forced to stuck on roads that most people are familiar with skiing and general weather. Add varying temperatures since average temperature in early December 1939 was +3 degrees celsius above zero, but snowfall was pretty heavy and sleet and damp conditions alongside snow was pretty common, then towards end of the month temperatures dropped to well below zero degrees quite abruptly, lack of preparations and general incompetence on the Soviet side and heavy reliance on poor infrastructure simply leads to the somewhat unsurprising notion that some of the early Finnish victories up North were essentially done with nothing but rifles, submachineguns, improvised AT equipment, and skis. Down South the Soviets kept headbutting against dug-in positions with no real success.
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I would actually like to see Infantry and mountaineers to be equal cost:
After all while they might warrant more training, mountaineers have much less equipment.
And overall the mountaineers balance out to about the same value compared to infatry.
After all while they might warrant more training, mountaineers have much less equipment.
And overall the mountaineers balance out to about the same value compared to infatry.
In HOI3, training increases IC costs, so I've always assumed that part of the reason they have a higher IC cost is to represent their additional training and consumption of more specialized equipment.
Like skis. And cold weather gear. And gear designed to be easier to use in mountainous terrain.
Sure, but wouldn't training be in the time (IRC Infantry takes something like a hundred days, while gebirgsjaeger take 150 days)?
Anyways, while they have cold weather gear (how much IC does a felt jacket for every soldier cost?) they also have less heavy equipment (smaller guns, less guns, etc.) but at the moment they use more IC then infantry (not much, something like ten percent or so, edit: 2,33 to 2.67 IC so gebrigsjaeger take about 12% more IC and 50% more time, making infantry cost only 55% of what a gebirgsjaeger unit cost which seems excessive).
I would think it evens out.
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Well, I'm not familiar with mountain warfare training regimens in the period, so I can't speak to the training cost. More contemporary training can get expensive, which I suspect is why not every single combat unit in the world's armies undergoes this training, even if they have mountains in their country.
Maybe it should even out. I've never found the IC cost of MTN to be prohibitive, though. MTN shares practicals with INF, so they build quick. The officer cost? Yeah, that's a whole other ballgame.
Prohibitive is not the point (and i think we cannot compare todays mountaineer training with training then) the point, to me, really is sky infantry.
Mountaineers are special forces, but not special forces.
Agreed.
The term is ambiguously used in HOI3 to cover lots of things, including ENG. :queue sitcom laugh track as Rangers and Marines look on in amazement: