Any idea how to represent ski infantry?

[Denkt]

They were quite effective as show in the winter war however no HOI I think have yet been able to capture this.
In HOI2 mountaineers have comebat and mobility advantages at winter however they are expansive and ski infantry was not special forces not to say that the scandinavian countries would have a hard time to build such expansive units.
In HOI3 their is a tech that give you some bonuses in winter but its low cost make it very accessible and no extra cost after that is needed at all.

In HOI4 you should probably have to unlock some kind of tech that only? scandinavians starts with and also pay a bit more equipment to represent the extra cost and advantages of the winter gears but these infatry should have a quite advantage in winter encourage nations that may expect alot of winter fighting to get these equipment.
Even special forces should be able to get these equipment instead of starting with arbitrary? bonuses.

This could be expanded to also include desert/jungle and maybe more types of infantry equipment.

Maybe you have to even produce the special equipment, making it more costly and painful to get it to your army while giving nations that start with them a boost becuase they could have been building it at start and have great efficiency at it + a large stockpile.

 

[alkls1234]

In the base HOI games there are only the general types of units represented, but there are lots of mods which add a lot of special units (BICE for example)

 

[SpanglishEmpire]

BlackIce did it well though there were very few provinces classed as artic where you could make use of them, If the only requirement to use them was snowy conditions they could have been more usable.

 

[Snow Wolf]

... how about a tech upgrade for infantry??

 

[KorppiFin]

... how about a tech upgrade for infantry??

If it's just tech, it will most likely be like in HOI III that Majors get it 100% of time, giving no real edge for minors.

This is mostly problem with Winter War.

Maybe you have to even produce the special equipment, making it more costly and painful to get it to your army while giving nations that start with them a boost becuase they could have been building it at start and have great efficiency at it + a large stockpile.

sounds like a really good idea. We haven't yet had a DD on how production or army supply works, but the best option would have seperate snow battle gear, and have nordics infrastructure and factories producing it from the start.

 

[wolf1455]

What about bicycle troops. Very effective for Germans and Japan troops. Especially in Malaya where japs used them against static defenders.

 

[Melackholy]

If it's just tech, it will most likely be like in HOI III that Majors get it 100% of time, giving no real edge for minors.

This is mostly problem with Winter War.



sounds like a really good idea. We haven't yet had a DD on how production or army supply works, but the best option would have seperate snow battle gear, and have nordics infrastructure and factories producing it from the start.

If you have that type of environment you get a research boost or you may start with it.
And that equipment may be improved more than one time research.
E.g. Norway, Sweden and Finland having better winter-equipment from the get go.

 

[wolf1455]

Germany, Italy and Österich also got some good Alpinists troops too.

 

[Wyrm]

Wouldn't mountain troops be a valid representation of alpine and ski-infantry?

 

[Secret Master]

In HOI3 their is a tech that give you some bonuses in winter but its low cost make it very accessible and no extra cost after that is needed at all.

Where do this rumors get started? There is no tech in HOI3 that increases combat effectiveness in winter.

Take look at the relevant techs from the tech tree. You will notice that there are two techs that are somewhat relevant to the Winter War:



Arctic Warfare equipment literally just reduces casualties from attrition. Not even from combat! If White Death is out there sniping at the Red Army, this tech doesn't help the Red Army.

How about Mountain Warfare?



This reduces attrition in mountains and increases attacking efficiency in mountains. But that has nothing to do with season or climate. Plus, the bonuses are not that awesome when compared to the differences between MTN and INF. In fact, let's look at them now:





Comparing MTN to INF, you can see substantial differences between them. These differences are not overcome to any degree by the techs you claim are easy to research and readily accessible. I should point out that MTN gets bonuses to fighting in forests and arctic, too. And MTN moves faster in most of these terrain types than regular infantry. Seems like MTN already includes ski troops who are competent in the kind of warfare seen in 1939 in Karelia and the Mannerheim Line.

In HOI4 you should probably have to unlock some kind of tech that only? scandinavians starts with and also pay a bit more equipment to represent the extra cost and advantages of the winter gears but these infatry should have a quite advantage in winter encourage nations that may expect alot of winter fighting to get these equipment.

We have no idea what techs or equipment infantry will have in HOI4. That being said, in HOI3, those MTN brigades cost more IC and officers than regular INF.

Even special forces should be able to get these equipment instead of starting with arbitrary? bonuses.

Since the special forces in HOI3 cost more to build than regular INF, the bonuses they receive are not arbitrary. You pay for them. And if you don't think the costs are enough, you should go take another look. There's a reason I don't build the entire Red Army out of MTN.

Maybe you have to even produce the special equipment, making it more costly and painful to get it to your army while giving nations that start with them a boost becuase they could have been building it at start and have great efficiency at it + a large stockpile.

We'll have to see how infantry kits are set up in HOI4. I imagine the Scandinavians will probably have plenty of equipment to equip units that specialize in this kind of warfare.

 

[Meglok]

What SM said. In HOI3 you could edit the combat effectiveness in a terrain up or down and the movement penalties in a terrain up or down, along with reducing it's firepower and effectiveness vs armor. That is how they represented mountain brigades in HOI3. You could mod in a ski regiment with even more movement bonuses in mountains, but to be realistic you would have to modify it's firepower down and it's effectiveness against armor to almost nothing. You aren't skiing mountain howitzers/AT guns up and down mountains. The best the Finns could do was lug their Lahti's around and it was a squad effort.

Ski troops are nice candy but not really important in a divisional level game. Best they could do is out-flank maybe, they really don't even have the bodies to hold ground against a division in open country on a strategic map scale.

 

[safe-keeper]

I propose a system in which nations gain experience in fighting in various environments, such as in desert, mountains, jungle, snow, etc., or for that matter under different conditions, such as defensively, at night-time, in bad weather, at low supply, etc. This would give units bonuses when fighting in this environments, such as faster movement through snow. This experience could also unlock techs, such as winter survival skills, and possibly even skiing. A compromise here could be that all nations could research skiing - it's a sandbox game, after all, but the higher your "snow experience", the bigger a bonus the skis would give you.

Scandinavians and Finns, for example, would start with lots of experience in fighting in Nordic conditions (cold, mountains, snow, long winter nights, etc.), but very little, if any, desert or jungle experience.

A bit like the doctrine techs in HOI3 that gave your units better skills in various fields (such as Soviet doctrines), but implemented as actual field experience rather than, or perhaps in addition to something you research.

 

[safe-keeper]

You could mod in a ski regiment with even more movement bonuses in mountains, but to be realistic you would have to modify it's firepower down and it's effectiveness against armor to almost nothing. You aren't skiing mountain howitzers/AT guns up and down mountains. The best the Finns could do was lug their Lahti's around and it was a squad effort.

What about pulks and sleds? Either way, we're talking snow, and not neccessarily mountains. The two should be different in gameplay terms.

 

[Denkt]

The experience thing sound good but I have a feeling they will not add in that at start.
But we really somehow need to represent the difficulty that an unprepared force would face against a prepered one, even a minor nation like Finland could humilate and severly punish a much more powerful army then theyself had.

Mountains and winter are two different things and you should need different equipment.
Maybe best way right now is to make sub tech to infantry equpiment (like tankdestroyers) that deal with specialised gear that cost quite a deal experience and time to get so only some would pay for it while others would chose others, probably more needed areas to focus on like tanks.
And even after you have gotten these equipment you still would have to produce them and they would be more expansive then normal infantry equipment so nations like Germany and Soviet may be much more interested to produce normal equipment which is cheaper and is just as good in most cases while a manpower limited nation like Finland who also may have longer winters then normal will more likely pay the extra cost for the equipment.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

Mountain infantry is costlier, they are special forces, but ski infantry were regular forces who had skis, it was, and is, common skill in Finland at least.

What about pulks and sleds? Either way, we're talking snow, and not neccessarily mountains. The two should be different in gameplay terms.

Should be included in "snow equipment" or what ever it is called that also gives skis.

 

[Loyt]

Skis didn't really matter. The edge of finns in winter war was shaming disorganized state of soviet army. Really passive commanding, problems in effective use of artillery and tanks. Until soviet government saw big casualties and no definitive results. When where were substantial rearrangements of officers, some tactical changes and improvement of supply lines.
And yes, they equipped soviet troops with skis too. So expectation of having some kind of "ski edge" which wont be easily accessible to major countries is ahistorical.

But seriously, it's just a better maneuverability for regiments with small arms, it's meager bonus on the scale of HoI. It's WWII, where artillery ruled above all. Winter combat bonus in tech tree sounds all right.

 

[Ruthlesssamuria]

Don't forget to include mountain pack artillery, AA , and engineers! Same with gilder born troops and paratroops

 

[sunsterson]

Honestly such a minor thing, I doubt the devs care

 

[Meglok]

What about pulks and sleds? Either way, we're talking snow, and not neccessarily mountains. The two should be different in gameplay terms.

And have no effect in a strategic level game. A tactical scale game yes, but not HOI4.

 

[Denkt]

Honestly such a minor thing, I doubt the devs care

Well past HOI games have had things like mountaineers.