Any idea how to deal with OP AI divisions in late game

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Apr 13, 2020
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I notice in 1945 and later (sometimes 1943 even), the AI ,especially in developed countries like Sweden, can start fielding infantry division with 800- 1000 soft attacks and up to 1000 for defense. I checked their base attack and it can be sometimes higher than mine (300+). I always field 20-width infantry division with the standard AT, ART and AA battlelions, so my breakthrough is still low (79-100) and soft attack is 300-500. Is it because the enemy use more than 20 width divisions?

These infantry divisions are quite hard to breakthrough even with tanks!
 
Apr 13, 2020
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Like this one. I wouldn't say they are overpowered. But I do remembered having trouble breaking through them, leading to frustration in multiple campaigns. Like in this case, their base value is 409.4 while mine is only 200-300. Makes me wonder whether I should update my division template often (especially infantry), instead of just being lazy and use the same one from 1941.

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SchwarzKatze

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Like this one. I wouldn't say they are overpowered. But I do remembered having trouble breaking through them, leading to frustration in multiple campaigns. Like in this case, their base value is 409.4 while mine is only 200-300. Makes me wonder whether I should update my division template often (especially infantry), instead of just being lazy and use the same one from 1941.

View attachment 579137
1) Your divisions are 20 width while theirs are 40
2) You're out of supply
3) Your divisions are not fully trained
4) Your Panzer Divisions are being penetrated by infantry. Check their penetration ability and adjust your template accordingly.
5) You have worse encryption technology than them
6) Why are you using tanks in an area with forests, rivers, and mud? If you have to use them, deploy them on the Baltic side of Sweden where the terrain is better
7) Where is the Luftwaffe? You're not fuel-starved, you should use them
 
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SophieX

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I don't think, AI is OP in your scenario; simply your divisions are weak.

In addition:
In my opinion, the AI couldn't handle tanks very well. Especially when fighting in terrain which is "bad" for tanks ( wood, mountain etc ).
I would micro this situation. The unit(A) in the north is bound for going south-east( SE); and another unit(B) ( from those three in the east ) shall deploy into this new "hole" in your front.
Stop this "merry go around" Put B to SE and let A help fighting.
Minor thing, I know but the summary of minors often has the same effect as a major has.
 
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Apr 13, 2020
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Good to hear the feedback. The screenshot shown does not demonstrate my usual micro. I just reloaded the save file and ran the battleplan to get an example of what I am talking about -- highly entrenched AI division with extremely high soft attack and defense in late game.

But I do suspect that my infantry and panzer division templates tend to be outdated and weak (reason being I dont want to mess up the whole army organisation by constant upgrading). I also thought my overwhelming number would allow me to overcome any minor EASILY in this game (which tend to prove me wrong since some minors field surprising strong templates).

Having said that, to answer my question with the help of feedback given here, I think the three lessons are:

1. Deploy in right terrain where breakthroughs are easier (infantry for cities, marines for rivers, tanks for plains, what about forests?)
2. Increase the width of your divisions (20 width might not be enough in late game)
3. Upgrade your weapons more often (the enemy is more likely to have advanced weapons in this game, especially strong minor like Sweden who can upgrade their smaller force quicker)

As for the other factors (air superiority, out of supply, not fully trained etc), I do check them frequently. Just the above three -- i tend to neglect in late game. Like in 1947, I am still fielding MASSIVE number of outdated planes and tanks. I am like the Soviets in 1940 -- big but clumsy. So i vastly underestimated Sweden since they are so small and isolated (like the Fins in Winter war). Probably should pause my invasion. Make the effort to upgrade my entire army (or at least the ones in frontline, to make sure i upgrade quickly without getting outdated again ). Better to have a small elite force that is more in line with German doctrine.
 

SchwarzKatze

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1. Deploy in right terrain where breakthroughs are easier (infantry for cities, marines for rivers, tanks for plains, what about forests?)
Infantry takes the less penalty from terrains except for mountain and amphibious operations (where the spec ops are better)
Vehicles (tanks, mot, mech) suffer extra penalty from non-flat terrains (plains, desert)

For forests, regular infantry takes the least penalties.

TBH, while they are the best, marines are not necessary for rivers especially against the AI. You just need to make sure your breakthrough units have engineers to offset the penalties. The key is not letting the enemies have time to entrench: start your breakthrough 2 or 3 provinces before a major river and rush to establish a bridgehead on the other side of the river before the enemies can reorganize or reinforce.
 
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Apr 13, 2020
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AI creates OP divisions?
Since when?

This post is not trying to prove that AI is good or not. Just want to deal with super buffed-up divisions that have 500 and above soft attacks. And they are used by less developed countries like Saudi and Sweden, which is something of a shocker to me. This usually happens in late game though where AI has tons of industry power and they can produce divisions of 40 width and above (Something I had trouble breaking through with my standard 20 width divisions)...
 
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mpop

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This was discussed in another thread how AI builds close to 40 width now in 1.9.2 especially when they have surplus of equipment late game. You will need better tank division now to break through enemy 40 width meme infantry divisions with a lot of defense. When I use 20 width tank division, I only attack now through areas with supplies and little attack penalty. I like this change because you can't mindlessly throw in some tanks and break their defense.
 
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Col.Klink

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Good to hear the feedback. The screenshot shown does not demonstrate my usual micro. I just reloaded the save file and ran the battleplan to get an example of what I am talking about -- highly entrenched AI division with extremely high soft attack and defense in late game.

But I do suspect that my infantry and panzer division templates tend to be outdated and weak (reason being I dont want to mess up the whole army organisation by constant upgrading). I also thought my overwhelming number would allow me to overcome any minor EASILY in this game (which tend to prove me wrong since some minors field surprising strong templates).

Having said that, to answer my question with the help of feedback given here, I think the three lessons are:

1. Deploy in right terrain where breakthroughs are easier (infantry for cities, marines for rivers, tanks for plains, what about forests?)
2. Increase the width of your divisions (20 width might not be enough in late game)
3. Upgrade your weapons more often (the enemy is more likely to have advanced weapons in this game, especially strong minor like Sweden who can upgrade their smaller force quicker)

As for the other factors (air superiority, out of supply, not fully trained etc), I do check them frequently. Just the above three -- i tend to neglect in late game. Like in 1947, I am still fielding MASSIVE number of outdated planes and tanks. I am like the Soviets in 1940 -- big but clumsy. So i vastly underestimated Sweden since they are so small and isolated (like the Fins in Winter war). Probably should pause my invasion. Make the effort to upgrade my entire army (or at least the ones in frontline, to make sure i upgrade quickly without getting outdated again ). Better to have a small elite force that is more in line with German doctrine.


You're about where I was in understanding when I first started posting here. I just couldn't realize how I was losing. To help ill clarify some concepts that took me forever to learn:

1) combat width. Due to how the game models damage ect the better the stats of each INDIVIDUAL division the better. So you want huge divisions. 40 width is considered the size for offense because you can't form an 80 width so if attacking from one province two 40s is better than one 50 fighting.

20 width is considered better defensively due to how reinforcement works in the game. 20 width means that there are a total of 4 divisions in normal circumstance that can participate in the battle. Each additional division you assign to the battle will be held in reserve. Once a division in the battle is defeated and slot opens up for a reserve division to participate it begins rolling the dice to see if it does actually join the battle every hour. At base the chance is actually quite dismal but with tech, signal companies and doctrine it gets a bit better.

If all of your divisions in the battle are defeated (org reduced to zero ) or destroyed (hp reduced to zero) before a reserve division rolls successfully to reinforce the battle you lose the fight and all divisions must retreat, even those at 100% strength. Enemies that destroy your organization quickly easily can penetrate your lines due to this mechanic, you just struggle to keep the battle going and they push you around.

So if you defend with 20 width divisions that means you begin trying to reinforce the battle at 75% strength rather than 50% if you had 40 width divisions.

2) experience. Exercises can rank the experience of all your troops up by one giving them a 25% damage boost. So when you recruit a division and it deploys assign it to a training army with exercises turned on. You will watch its exp go up slowly till it levels up once. This basically doubles the training time but 25% bonus stats is well worth it.

3) air supperiority is the most bullshit op thing in the game. The enemy doesnt even need to bomb you to gain serious bonus to their combat stats. They don't even need a plane in that specific battlespace. If they achieve "superiority" in the air region then they are really really and I mean really to the most absurd degree make you suffer. Ive watched as something like 3 interwar chinese planes in the air region of the border of manchuria (thousands of square miles) debuffed my entire manchukuo army. This mechanic is that stupid and that overpowered.

If you have limited resources and have to pick between a dominating air force and tanks take the air force. If you can't afford an air force for the love of God equip every division with aa because of this bullshit mechanic.

4) decryption advantage is basically a free bonus for all your divions. Dedicate a research slot to it if you don't have la resistance. If you do have the dlc dedicate the civilian factory time to building an Intel agency then building a decryption department and FULLY upgrading it. I even do this as tiny little manchukuo. As germany there's no reason not to do it.

5) tactics: tactics your generals will use in the individual battles are so important that I've sometimes felt that it is the primary reason to fully research a doctrinal tree thereby unlocking every one possible.

Because tactics can dramatically swing the battle (often a 25% buff or debuff, but with mass mobilization the defender can shrink the attackers combat width effectively a 50% debuff) every division needs some sort of a recon unit. I feel recon is more important than engineers tbh. Engineers only help in certain situations like if you have time to dig in. Recon ALWAYS helps.

6) with tank divisions the most important thing is to have more armor than the enemy's prospective piercing. In Asia I can get away with really low armor ratings like 10 or less because the chinese are just unlikely to have anything to pierce.

If your armor is higher than their piercing rating you do DOUBLE organization damage.

After armor the most important thing is soft attack not breakthrough. Breakthrough reduces the enemy's ability to hit your unit while you attack. But your goal isn't a protracted battle with tanks. Every hour that you fight the enemy is another chance his reinforcements can join the fight. Since the purpose of tanks is to achieve a break in the enemy front line by targeting infantry you absolutely must maximize soft attack. When you hurt the enemy with said soft attack you also cause org damage. If you have built your tank division correctly for the threat then you will have more armor than he can penetrate creating DOUBLE org damage.

By maximizing soft attack and targeting infantry divisions for penetration of the enemy front you create a situation where you can potentially end battles without having to fight every reinforced division. You hit so hard and fast that the enemy reinforcements are more or less pushed out of the way. This way your tank division can have enough momentum to encircle the enemy.
 
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Simon_9732495

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If your armor is higher than their piercing rating you do DOUBLE organization damage.
Typo.
If your piercing is higher than their armor you do DOUBLE organization damage.


20 width is considered better defensively due to how reinforcement works in the game.
Maybe to add:
2 20w have a lot more org than 1 40w. Attackers need longer to deorg them. And 20w can still have a defense value high enough to cover most attacks.
 
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Col.Klink

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Typo.
If your piercing is higher than their armor you do DOUBLE organization damage.



Maybe to add:
2 20w have a lot more org than 1 40w. Attackers need longer to deorg them. And 20w can still have a defense value high enough to cover most attacks.


Thats the key point, you are winning an organizational victory essentially. The longer you can make the battle the more chance for the defender to win.

With 20w your front line structure is more granular too. Meaning its easier to pull units from other parts of the front to stop a potential breakthrough without overly weakening any given point.

I spent a lot of time touting mass mobilization and this is an area it does extremely well. The insane recovery rate you get means if your cycling divisions every hour the attacker takes to win makes it that much worse for him
 
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Apr 13, 2020
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This was discussed in another thread how AI builds close to 40 width now in 1.9.2 especially when they have surplus of equipment late game. You will need better tank division now to break through enemy 40 width meme infantry divisions with a lot of defense. When I use 20 width tank division, I only attack now through areas with supplies and little attack penalty. I like this change because you can't mindlessly throw in some tanks and break their defense.

Well, you can see that i am just trying to understand the AI behavior more. Cos it has been a consistent pattern that the AI will increase the combat width of infantry and maximise their firepower (while I failed to do so out of convenience or pure laziness). I want to wipe the floor with minor nations (so i can move on to more interesting opponents like America) but their high-tech units tend to slow down my campaign a bit...
 

Col.Klink

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Well, you can see that i am just trying to understand the AI behavior more. Cos it has been a consistent pattern that the AI will increase the combat width of infantry and maximise their firepower (while I failed to do so out of convenience or pure laziness). I want to wipe the floor with minor nations (so i can move on to more interesting opponents like America) but their high-tech units tend to slow down my campaign a bit...


I learned the hard way that tech > numbers usually. Max small arms tech literally does 4 times the damage that basic does, twice 1936. Due to combat width ect your not normally going to get twice or four times the number on the field so tech it is. I've been learning to really master land battle as manchukuo and I learned to just plant a research slot on small arms and let it go, buffing it with bonus research tech and a small arms company. Having the best gear is incredibly important no matter tje doctrine but especially as mobile warfare or mass mobilization it seems.

Numbers only really works over a large front where you are cycling divisions in attack attack attack. Your casaulties will be horrendous but their organization will eventually fail because you dont let them have any chance to recover. It only works over a wide area because if you focus on just one tile the ai will cycle divisions wearing you down to a nub.
 
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Apr 13, 2020
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Maybe to add:
2 20w have a lot more org than 1 40w. Attackers need longer to deorg them.

Not sure whether this is proven but if it is true, then i understood this part of what he said

"So if you defend with 20 width divisions that means you begin trying to reinforce the battle at 75% strength rather than 50% if you had 40 width divisions. "

Because in the same time frame (1 hr), if the enemy attack is ferocious that 1 40 width division will be dislodged, then that same amount of attack might not be able to deorg 2 20 width divisions. At most only 1 20 width will lose organisation and retreat, hence the battle is at 75% strength and reinforcement will come...
 
Apr 13, 2020
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I learned the hard way that tech > numbers usually. Max small arms tech literally does 4 times the damage that basic does, twice 1936. Due to combat width ect your not normally going to get twice or four times the number on the field so tech it is. I've been learning to really master land battle as manchukuo and I learned to just plant a research slot on small arms and let it go, buffing it with bonus research tech and a small arms company. Having the best gear is incredibly important no matter tje doctrine but especially as mobile warfare or mass mobilization it seems.

Numbers only really works over a large front where you are cycling divisions in attack attack attack. Your casaulties will be horrendous but their organization will eventually fail because you dont let them have any chance to recover. It only works over a wide area because if you focus on just one tile the ai will cycle divisions wearing you down to a nub.


Me too :( there is a reason why in ww2 all the countries end up with latest tech in their weapons. Spamming huge outdated units is just inefficient.
 

Col.Klink

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Not sure whether this is proven but if it is true, then i understood this part of what he said

"So if you defend with 20 width divisions that means you begin trying to reinforce the battle at 75% strength rather than 50% if you had 40 width divisions. "

Because in the same time frame (1 hr), if the enemy attack is ferocious that 1 40 width division will be dislodged, then that same amount of attack might not be able to deorg 2 20 width divisions. At most only 1 20 width will lose organisation and retreat, hence the battle is at 75% strength and reinforcement will come...


Think about it this way. 2 20 width divisions have twice the command staff for the same number of men as a 40 w.

In gameplay terms you see this as a 40w division having say 70-80 organization as a pure infantry division. A 20w will also have 70-80 org. Org is like "hit points" in a sense. So two 20w would have 140-160.

But things get even better for the 20w oriented defense strategy. My understanding of the rules of combat in the game is divisions attack AND defend as INDIVIDUALS. Their scores are not lumped as one in a battle. Meaning if you have 4 20 width divisions on the offense their attacks will be split up among up to four different targets. So even though collectively they have the same number of soft attacks as 2 40w divisions their attacks are diffused.

That means a 40w division on the offense is like getting two 20w to actually attack the same enemy division. So you focus your attacks better on the offense and knock enemy divisions out of the battle quicker. You actually finish one off instead of spreading the soft attack about.

But this also means on defense if an enemy rolls really good hits its against ONE of your divisions. So the chances are the attacker is going to knock your defenders out one at a time not two at a time ect.

So imagine a scenario. The attacker is hitting with 2 40w divisions. The defender stands with 6 20 w divisions. 2 of those divisions are in reserve obviously. The defenders active 4 divisions collectively have twice the organization hit points that the attacker does. Imagine each division has 70 org. Because the way combat works the attacker can roll enough soft attack damage to cause 160 org damage all that damage is applied to only ONE of the defending divisions. So now the defenders total strength is at 75% of combat width and one of their reserves begins to attempt to join the battle. Because divisions fight as individuals all damage inflicted excess of knocking a division out of the fight is wasted.

All of this is why you should love signal companies which improve your chance to reinforce a battle. If you pull a division or two from a neighboring province to reinforce a losing battle those reinforcements cannot use any entrenchment bonuses, so engineer companies in such a situation aren't nearly as important as signal.
 
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