Any fight to a Pacifist Rebel?

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Jarac Rassen

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I think pacifism in this game doesn't mean "no violence whatsoever", rather it's a reluctance to violence. Violence is seen as an option of last resort.

Sure, you can wage a war as a pacifist, but it'll need to be extremely short because of the war weariness penalty and a "justified" war (mostly defense).
 
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CocoCincinnati

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So if a pacifist faction rebels, will the pops in the faction suffer higher war unhappiness than other factions might and thus lead to that faction becoming more and more unstable the longer the rebellion goes on? Maybe the best way to deal with a pacifist rebellion is to just drag it out until they get tired of it, but a militarist rebellion on the other hand will need to be put down as quickly as possible before it gains steam.
 
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Zaku

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I consider myself a pacifist, but if an alien race with completely alien values came and invaded our planet you can bet your ass I would be on the frontlines.
I think being a pacifist doesn't mean that you refuse to fight, it means that war is only a last resort.
 
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TomBombadil

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Pacifists in foxholes. Star War's rebels are essentially pacifists; desiring an end to war and violence doesn't mean an unwillingness to fight for those beliefs.
 
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KonradKurze202

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Well considering the Blorg uprising had various levels:
1) Protests
2) Strikes
3) ?? Can't remember right now
4) Rebellion


I'm going to say pacifistic rebellions are in the game, they protest, they strike, they reduce the usefulness of their planets to your empire.
 
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Dark Shadow NNN

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3) ?? Can't remember right now

They sabotaged an infrastructure.

Sabatoge is considered a traditional nonviolent form of protest. Maybe a radical one and maybe borderline whit violent forms of protest.


From the point of view of a govern the can still be called terrorist in propaganda. ;)


Yes, in Stellaris nonviolence is represented in abstract and limited way, but its still more represented than in a lot of other games.
 

Deaghaidh

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; desiring an end to war and violence doesn't mean an unwillingness to fight for those beliefs.

Actually it kind of does. True pacifists don't fight in self-defense. They are willing to die for their principals but not kill for them.

Pacifist rebellions would thus take the form of general strikes, mass sit-ins, occupying the streets, and other actions that grind the machinery of the state to a halt but don't actually involve violence.

In game terms, not sure how to model that. It would be great to have rebellions play out differently based on ideologies.
 

Aegrim

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What+to+expect+from+gandhi+in+civ+5_017bbf_4829353.gif


Posting again because relevant.
 
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Olliganak

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I think I saw Jain religious rebels at some point in CK2. And that one makes even less sense.

I know that feeling all too well
2014-12-21_00002.jpg
 
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Oscot

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As to the actual title question, "Any fight to Pacifist Rebel?", recall that the actual pacifist empire modifier is:
  • +1 Maximum embassies
  • -25% Rivalry influence gain
  • -10% Army damage
i.e. the fleet is no less effective whatsoever. Pacifism is only less effective at planet conquest, and even then it's only a 10% malus. All this wailing and gnashing of teeth about how all pacifist ethos empires are inherantly massively underpowered and doomed to be crushed in the early game is, I think, rather overblown.

As for pacifist armed revolt being counterintuitive, I echo the sentiments expressed above that pacifists aren't necessarily of the Jain / Gandhi / Quaker variety of total nonviolence. To wit: I could argue that the American Revolution was a pacifist revolt, because it was sparked by the taxes levied under the Stamp Act of 1765, and the Stamp Act of 1765 was instituted to raise funds to pay for the armies necessary to defend the American colonies. So these were essentially people rebelling against having (to pay for) an army, which sounds a lot like a pacifist revolt to me. And yet it fielded the Continental Army, so it's a situation rife with irony.
 
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Guilu

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Pacifists in foxholes. Star War's rebels are essentially pacifists; desiring an end to war and violence doesn't mean an unwillingness to fight for those beliefs.
A lot of them want a return to a more democratic form of government, one that doesn't deploy weapons of mass destruction against its own population. Being a pacifist means you're always looking for alternatives to war, because war is terrible. Even when the war goes on their pops will have lower happiness because there's dissent, that there has got to be a better way.
I could argue that the American Revolution was a pacifist revolt, because it was sparked by the taxes levied under the Stamp Act of 1765, and the Stamp Act of 1765 was instituted to raise funds to pay for the armies necessary to defend the American colonies. So these were essentially people rebelling against having (to pay for) an army, which sounds a lot like a pacifist revolt to me. And yet it fielded the Continental Army, so it's a situation rife with irony.
I'd argue that they weren't willing to participate in a war that they had no interest in, which is standard independantist fare.
 

Oscot

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I'd argue that they weren't willing to participate in a war that they had no interest in, which is standard independantist fare.
American colonists having no interest in a war fought by Great Britain to stop American colonists getting scalped sounds a lot like an oxymoron.

But whatever. If your rebellion is a rebellion ultimately against some aspect of militarism, then whether its proximate cause is taxes, war-weariness, or Jainism, I think you could make the argument that it's a pacifist revolt.

I'm not trying to get into an argument about 1776 here; all I'm trying to do is demonstrate that there are some not-totally-ridiculous mental gymnastics you can do in order to make a Stellaris pacifist revolt sort of make headcanon sense.
 

Cyridius

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Mahatma Gandhi, ever heard of the guy...? o_O

To be fair Gandhi was only part of a much larger movement and quite a deal of violence was involved.

But don't mind me, your point still stands I guess. Peaceful resistance is certainly a thing - though it isn't modeled into this game through open revolt(Though there are Strikes etc - I wonder where they got inspiration for that...).
 
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Oscot

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(Though there are Strikes etc - I wonder where they got inspiration for that...).
Do you really need to be 'inspired' by something to put in a strike mechanic?
It's not like it's a novel concept.
 

kakatua

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Gandhi was all in favor when the British authorities used violence(I'm not saying police or army, I'm saying torture and kill without judgement) to stop strikes and other movements made by his political rivals.
 
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You mean this genocidal maniac who nukes everyone? ;)

All joking aside, here is an actual quote that he delivered in real life:

"Had we adopted non-violence as the weapon of the strong, because we realised that it was more effective than any other weapon, in fact the mightiest force in the world, we would have made use of its full potency and not have discarded it as soon as the fight against the British was over or we were in a position to wield conventional weapons. But as I have already said, we adopted it out of our helplessness. If we had the atom bomb, we would have used it against the British."
- Mohandas Gandhi, 16 July 1947
 

Oscot

King of Space Portugal
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Oct 14, 2014
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All joking aside, here is an actual quote that he delivered in real life:

"Had we adopted non-violence as the weapon of the strong, because we realised that it was more effective than any other weapon, in fact the mightiest force in the world, we would have made use of its full potency and not have discarded it as soon as the fight against the British was over or we were in a position to wield conventional weapons. But as I have already said, we adopted it out of our helplessness. If we had the atom bomb, we would have used it against the British."
- Mohandas Gandhi, 16 July 1947
Literally worse than Hitler