Any chance Rome can be considered for the new westernization decision?

[Mattimeo78]

I think the greater issue is that only Eastern and Anatolian countries benefit from this frankly unnecessary mechanic. If this is supposed to simulate a lesser technology group taking Western lands and learning from what they find there, why would Muslim or Chinese or Sub-Saharan groups not have the same experience? 1500s Native Americans might not have guns, but a man is a man, and even a simple man can eventually be taught how to operate a weapons factory or compose music.
If it is a purely "gameplay" mechanic, then again, why not make it an option for everyone? If I can expand a Sub-Saharan up to and conquer Wien/Prague/Danzig, I deserve magically-instantaneous Westernization.

Edit: In short, I wouldn't lose any sleep over simply getting rid of it. We already have the Westernization mechanic which has been tweaked repeatedly, why invalidate it for pretty much all the countries who use it? Americans notwithstanding.

 

[trybald]

The development of modern states was linked to kings gaining more control over the estates of the realm. In PLC the King was elected and did not have the chance to strengthen his power. He had to make concessions, so the nobles kept their power and not stengthend the cental power.


Westernization in the timeframe should be limited. Thats a something that barely happend in the timeframe of EU IV. Of course it would be nice to westernize as muslims for free, but in fact one (!) country, Russia, did complete it in in reality.

In England it went the other way - the Parliament prevailed over king and gradually marginalized him. Very similar development happened in Poland, and in fact there were striking similarities between England and Poland. Just like England, Poland saw the emergence of a prime minister in the office of Grand Chancellor. This Polish development was cut short by the catastrophe of the Deluge which deprived the nobility of resources needed to control the magnates.

One of the main misconceptions about Poland is the assumption that the Sejm and elective monarchy brought decentralization. It can't be farther from truth. The Sejm was a powerful centralizing force, since it utterly eclipsed all local assemblies. The laws enacted by the Sejm were applicable in all of Poland and the PLC. That's actually a level of centralization almost unheard of in contemporary states which were full of provinces jealously guarding their ancient autonomies and laws.

It was only after the magnates paralyzed the Sejm the decentralization kicked in. With Sejm unable to enact anything, the local assemblies re-emerged and run their respective provinces. But they were completely dominated by the local magnates through their clients.

 

[Boristus]

I think the greater issue is that only Eastern and Anatolian countries benefit from this frankly unnecessary mechanic. If this is supposed to simulate a lesser technology group taking Western lands and learning from what they find there, why would Muslim or Chinese or Sub-Saharan groups not have the same experience? 1500s Native Americans might not have guns, but a man is a man, and even a simple man can eventually be taught how to operate a weapons factory or compose music.
If it is a purely "gameplay" mechanic, then again, why not make it an option for everyone? If I can expand a Sub-Saharan up to and conquer Wien/Prague/Danzig, I deserve magically-instantaneous Westernization.

The thing is, it doesn't mean that at all. It's meant to represent one of the major eastern-European great powers (I.e, Russia, Ottomans, PLC), who already have all of the necessary background, equipment, and cultural context to otherwise be western tech, but has fallen out of the "sphere" of western Europe, re-immersing themselves in the Western European community. Unlike any of the other tech groups, they already possess everything needed to be "western", but have been focused on eastern expansion, rather than western. This decision is meant to reflect a change in policy within a "peer power" to Western Europe, not the overreaching effects of a completely different culture re-arranging their society from the top-down to keep up with the Europeans.

 

[moscal]

@trybald But Commanders clothes is nothing. National ideology (Sarmatism), warfare, style of life etc. was not Western. Polish-Lithuanian nobleman called the people of west "pludraki" (from Hose) and this was a pejorative term.

 

[Mattimeo78]

The thing is, it doesn't mean that at all. It's meant to represent one of the major eastern-European great powers (I.e, Russia, Ottomans, PLC), who already have all of the necessary background, equipment, and cultural context to understand the west, but has fallen out of the "sphere" of western Europe, re-immersing themselves in the Western European community. Unlike any of the other tech groups, they already possess everything needed to be "western", but have been focused on eastern expansion, rather than western. This decision is meant to reflect a change in policy within a "peer power" to Western Europe, not the overreaching effects of a completely different culture re-arranging their society from the top-down to keep up with the Europeans.

None of which can be gleaned from "take X province to undergo the expensive process of Westernization instantly and for free", which was kind of my point.

 

[Zwirbaum]

Yes, but it doesn't carry over Cavalry Ratios.

It does carry Cavalry ratio, because IT IS tied to the Tech Unit Group, not the starting tech group.

 

[trybald]

@trybald But Commanders clothes is nothing. National ideology (Sarmatism), warfare, style of life etc. was not Western. Polish-Lithuanian nobleman called the people of west "pludraki" (from Hose) and this was a pejorative term.

Look at the army, not the commander. It looks like any other army fighting the Thirty Years War.

Sarmatism never assumed that Poland is some kind of a special snowflake separate from the rest of Europe. On the other hand, it rather strongly emphasized contacts with Romance countries. Besides, it never spread in the entire PLC, neither it was present for the entire period in question.

EDIT: horrid typo. Damn touchscreens!

 

[Grand Historian]

It does carry Cavalry ratio, because IT IS tied to the Tech Unit Group, not the starting tech group.

Really? Well, I stand corrected.

 

[jesias]

It is absurd to give Poland eastern techgroup in the first place. While it makes some sense for Muscovy due to its relative isolation at the start of the game, it's completely different matter for Poland or the PLC. Poland actively participated in inter-European trade, had access to all technological and scientific advancements that took place in Europe and put them into use.

I think it's fine. With western arms trade and if you get "Sejm complies with your policies" event you have the same tech cost as western but if not then your cost is much higher and it should be this way.

 

[petertel123]

The development of modern states was linked to kings gaining more control over the estates of the realm.

that's the general rule, but there were exeptions. The Netherlands were very decentralized and, as a confederation, lacked any strong central rule (monarchic or otherwise). The Stadhouder had much less power than the kings of Europe, yet the Dutch republic was a great power in this timeframe.

 

[Grand Historian]

that's the general rule, but there were exeptions. The Netherlands were very decentralized and, as a confederation, lacked any strong central rule (monarchic or otherwise). The Stadhouder had much less power than the kings of Europe, yet the Dutch republic was a great power in this timeframe.

And America. And England. And Poland (which declined as a result of Absolutism). Austria was never really centralized in the same way as other nations and yet it was one of the most important powers of the period.

 

[moscal]

Look at the army, not the commander. It looks like any other army fighting the Thirty Years Eat.

In PLC exist "Autorament cudzoziemski" (rus. Иноземный авторамент) - regiments armed in western style. But late Chinese Empire too had troops equipped with western style.

See on culture, mentality and style to the west and in PLC.

 

[damifoe]

And America. And England. And Poland (which declined as a result of Absolutism). Austria was never really centralized in the same way as other nations and yet it was one of the most important powers of the period.

These countries (except Poland) were all focused on trade and therefore extremly wealthy.And Austria was centralized.
Absolutism is a very controversial term.

But lets focus back on the western focus decision: Maybe the decision should be not available that early? Russia westernised around 1700, PLC tried it at the end of the 18th century. But on the other hand both tried it the classic way.

 

[brtzknf]

Is it just in my games that Poland rarely takes Danzig since the new patch? Usually pomerania gets it and is then proteced by the Empire

 

[Starki113r]

I find that most of the countries that want Western Focus either A) shouldn't need it (Poland, Hungary and the Greek minors should be Western at start with Eastern tech group units), B) get it for free (Russia), or C) are strong enough to steamroll their way into it (Ottomans). I'm not saying the mechanic is poor, but it should at least apply to ALL tech groups that are not Western, and should be expanded to Madrid, London, Paris, and either Florence or Milan. And Danzig should be either replaced with an HRE province or removed as an option entirely, because, like Rome, it is far too easy to take.

If the Poles want Westernization then they, like every single other nation, should at least have to work for it.

 

[panther29]

Technology in EU contains adminstrative and government improvement. Western countries could achieve this but Poland couldn't. Almost every European monarchies had feudal tradition and strong nobles. Some could manage them and have western Europe tech at EU, others couldn't and have eastern Europe tech at EU.

Yet somehow all those that could manage are west of Poland and all that couldn't mange are east of Poland. This division that paradox implemented has nothing to do with technological or administrative advancements. At that time the only divide between east and west Europe was the divide between orthodoxy and catholicism. Only after the communist era were Hungary, Poland and the Czech Republic associated with the East and being less "advanced" than the west. In 1444 Hungary and Poland were no less advanced than much of Western Europe if not more than some areas like Ireland. I'm not saying that they were centers of technological advancements like the HRE or Italy (that already have other bonuses to represent that), but they were definitely NOT considered "eastern" in any technological or cultural way.

 

[SquidsForKids]

Far too easy for Ottomans to take.

And danzig isn't too easy for Poland?

 

[trybald]

Yet somehow all those that could manage are west of Poland and all that couldn't mange are east of Poland. This division that paradox implemented has nothing to do with technological or administrative advancements. At that time the only divide between east and west Europe was the divide between orthodoxy and catholicism. Only after the communist era were Hungary, Poland and the Czech Republic associated with the East and being less "advanced" than the west. In 1444 Hungary and Poland were no less advanced than much of Western Europe if not more than some areas like Ireland. I'm not saying that they were centers of technological advancements like the HRE or Italy (that already have other bonuses to represent that), but they were definitely NOT considered "eastern" in any technological or cultural way.

Indeed, it's a leftover of a cold-war perception of Central and Eastern Europe. It is as anachronistic for the EUIV period and it becomes increasingly obsolete today. It could be somewhat understandable for EU1 which was released in 2000, but it's laughable right now. Plain and simple. There's absolutely no reason why for example EU Poland should be in any way behind Brandenburg or Bohemia. All these counties shared very similar cultural traits and adopted Western ideas at more or less the same time.

If the Eastern techgroups really must stay, then it should be arranged differently. It should be either restricted to Orthodox countries (reflecting their relative isolation) or start somewhere in the middle of Germany to reflect the serfdom-based economy which developed roughly east of river Weser.

 

[zsImmortal]

Indeed, it's a leftover of a cold-war perception of Central and Eastern Europe. It is as anachronistic for the EUIV period and it becomes increasingly obsolete today. It could be somewhat understandable for EU1 which was released in 2000, but it's laughable right now. Plain and simple. There's absolutely no reason why for example EU Poland should be in any way behind Brandenburg or Bohemia. All these counties shared very similar cultural traits and adopted Western ideas at more or less the same time.

If the Eastern techgroups really must stay, then it should be arranged differently. It should be either restricted to Orthodox countries (reflecting their relative isolation) or start somewhere in the middle of Germany to reflect the serfdom-based economy which developed roughly east of river Weser.

Except the Rus principalities, for one. It really wasn't until Peter the Great that Russia really looked like the Western nations. That said, the uniform blocks of East and West make no real sense in 1444, as Hungary was just as advanced as most Western nations, having probably the best army in Europe and conquering Wien prior to the end of the 15th century. Ireland/Brittany/etc. was in no way, shape or form more advanced than Poland.

Then again, the criticism for the tech system could be much wider, as it is largely an abomination when considering nations like Ming, the Timurids and Persia.