Any chance Rome can be considered for the new westernization decision?

[happymix91]

It is. But Poland is really close to the west, it starts as direct neighbour to the HRE while the others don't (except Hungary). They were not that far behind in knowledge. And like i said before, they started almost western before 1.12. Poland is a special case, i think that's why Danzig is included

I don't think that Poland isn't that close to Western Europe in the aspects of technology, but maybe Paradox has similar opinion with you.

 

[damifoe]

....So? How is the ottomans becoming a great power during the timeframe different from morocco becoming a great power during the timeframe?
Not to mention that other dying powers like novgorod and karaman can also use the decision

Because the Ottomans were a great power in reality, Marocco wasnt. Novgorod and Karaman are dying powers and actually die in the game (nowgrorod not anymore because Muscowy is broken, but the they did before 1.12).

I don't think that Poland isn't that close to Western Europe in the aspects of technology, but maybe Paradox has similar opinion with you.

Poland did not fail because a lack of knowledge and being not western enough. It failed because the percentage of the noblility men was much higher than every other country in europe and so they were too powerful. The sejm ruled the country, not the elected king.

The Ottomans did not westernize, but they were really close to conquer Vienna, so thats seems realistic enough for me. The Russians westernized the 'classic' way.

 

[happymix91]

Poland did not fail because a lack of knowledge and being not western enough. It failed because the percentage of the noblility men was much higher than every other country in europe and so they were too powerful. The sejm ruled the country, not the elected king.

Technology in EU contains adminstrative and government improvement. Western countries could achieve this but Poland couldn't. Almost every European monarchies had feudal tradition and strong nobles. Some could manage them and have western Europe tech at EU, others couldn't and have eastern Europe tech at EU.

 

[Grand Historian]

Far too easy for Ottomans to take.

What about Venice?

 

[petertel123]

What about Venice?

Even easier, just fabricate on one of the venetian holdings in the aegean and take venice instead.

Because the Ottomans were a great power in reality, Marocco wasnt. Novgorod and Karaman are dying powers and actually die in the game (nowgrorod not anymore because Muscowy is broken, but the they did before 1.12).

What does it matter who was a great power in reality when that is completely different from the game a 100 years in? My point is that if Novgorod and Karaman can become a great power and westernize cheaply, why not morocco or the mamluks?

 

[damifoe]

Technology in EU contains adminstrative and government improvement. Western countries could achieve this but Poland couldn't. Almost every European monarchies had feudal tradition and strong nobles. Some could manage them and have western Europe tech at EU, others couldn't and have eastern Europe tech at EU.

But Poland is the extreme. The game represents it by the unique elective Monarchy. In the end the polish-lithunian nobility realised that and started to reform, but that made the neighbours annex them.

What does it matter who was a great power in reality when that is completely different from the game a 100 years in? My point is that if Novgorod and Karaman can become a great power and westernize cheaply, why not morocco or the mamluks?

Ok. So don't link it to the tech group, just make it available to the countries that came close to westernization in reality: Poland, Russia (which also can be formed by Novgorod) and the Ottomans.

 

[spyroware1]

Far too easy for Ottomans to take.

Make the Pope CTA all catholics when DoW'd by a non-neighbour (edit: and heathens ofc). Problem solved

 

[trybald]

... And yet, it's okay for Danzig to be available as a choice for Westernization. Which is in the hands of the Teutonic Order. Who are historical rivals of, and always rivaled by, Poland, who gets a free PU over one of the strongest nations in the game. And plenty of free missions for CBs on the Teutons.

Including one for Danzig.

... Really?

It is absurd to give Poland eastern techgroup in the first place. While it makes some sense for Muscovy due to its relative isolation at the start of the game, it's completely different matter for Poland or the PLC. Poland actively participated in inter-European trade, had access to all technological and scientific advancements that took place in Europe and put them into use.

 

[happymix91]

But Poland is the extreme. The game represents it by the unique elective Monarchy. In the end the polish-lithunian nobility realised that and started to reform, but that made the neighbours annex them.

Poland must fight with Sweden, Russia, and Ottoman. Yes, Poland had less power to catch up Western nations as it should do other things.

 

[petertel123]

Ok. So don't link it to the tech group, just make it available to the countries that came close to westernization in reality: Poland, Russia (which also can be formed by Novgorod) and the Ottomans.

Why would you want to railroad the game like that though? Why couldnt the Mamluks come just as close if they defeated the Ottomans and took anatolia? Why shouldnt Hungary be able to westernize off Vienna just like Poland if they PU Austria?

 

[Grand Historian]

It is absurd to give Poland eastern techgroup in the first place. While it makes some sense for Muscovy due to its relative isolation at the start of the game, it's completely different matter for Poland or the PLC. Poland actively participated in inter-European trade, had access to all technological and scientific advancements that took place in Europe and put them into use.

It's probably because Eastern Nations get the 60% Cavalry Ratio when Western only gets 50%. I had suggested replacing Catholic's -1 Heretic Tolerance with -5% Tech Cost a while back, and one of the consequences would be that it would better simulate how nations like Poland and Hungary were more advanced than Russia and Novgorod.

 

[trybald]

Poland did not fail because a lack of knowledge and being not western enough. It failed because the percentage of the noblility men was much higher than every other country in europe and so they were too powerful. The sejm ruled the country, not the elected king.

It was actually the opposite. Poland declined because the nobility declined also. Or more precisely, Poland declined because the middle nobility declined economically and was no longer capable to check to the very few most powerful magnate families. The magnates dominated the political system either personally or through their clients and turned it into paralyzed oligarchy.

Before the post-deluge economic decline, the Sejm was rather efficient in managing the country. The idea that Poland collapsed due to too much freedom was the official history introduced by the absolutist monarchies that divided Poland. It was as propagandist as it was inaccurate, yet it got deeply ingrained into popular consciousness.

 

[Koivin]

... And yet, it's okay for Danzig to be available as a choice for Westernization. Which is in the hands of the Teutonic Order. Who are historical rivals of, and always rivaled by, Poland, who gets a free PU over one of the strongest nations in the game. And plenty of free missions for CBs on the Teutons.

Including one for Danzig.

... Really?

Poland should've been western from the start, this is only done so Poland can keep their iconic cavalry units.

 

[LikeNothing]

It makes a hell lot more sense than Danzig, that's for sure.

I mean, Danzig/Gdansk was founded by the Polish to begin with. Why would retaking it make such a drastic difference?

It's like, if France retakes Bourgogne/Dijon, France gets to have a unique decision to receive a permanent -10% Development Cost bonus called "The Wines of Burgundy" or something.

Actually that sounds like fun. Be right back I'll mod that.

 

[gaius valerius]

Can someone link this new mechanic for westernisation? I seemed to have missed the announcement and am curious to find out what this is all about.

 

[moscal]

PL was not a Western country...

 

[trybald]

PL was not a Western country...

It had some peculiarities, but it was firmly within the spectrum of Western Europe.

The picture from 1634 shows Russian generals capitulating before the Polish king and army after the Battle of Smolensk. The army looks pretty Western to me.

 

[damifoe]

It was actually the opposite. Poland declined because the nobility declined also. Or more precisely, Poland declined because the middle nobility declined economically and was no longer capable to check to the very few most powerful magnate families. The magnates dominated the political system either personally or through their clients and turned it into paralyzed oligarchy.

Before the post-deluge economic decline, the Sejm was rather efficient in managing the country. The idea that Poland collapsed due to too much freedom was the official history introduced by the absolutist monarchies that divided Poland. It was as propagandist as it was inaccurate, yet it got deeply ingrained into popular consciousness.

The development of modern states was linked to kings gaining more control over the estates of the realm. In PLC the King was elected and did not have the chance to strengthen his power. He had to make concessions, so the nobles kept their power and not stengthend the cental power.


Westernization in the timeframe should be limited. Thats a something that barely happend in the timeframe of EU IV. Of course it would be nice to westernize as muslims for free, but in fact one (!) country, Russia, did complete it in in reality.

 

[Zwirbaum]

It's probably because Eastern Nations get the 60% Cavalry Ratio when Western only gets 50%. I had suggested replacing Catholic's -1 Heretic Tolerance with -5% Tech Cost a while back, and one of the consequences would be that it would better simulate how nations like Poland and Hungary were more advanced than Russia and Novgorod.

You can have Western Tech, with Eastern Tech Unit Group. (Like there are some African countries, like Ethiopia with Muslim Tech Group and (forgot what it was their unit type tech)

 

[Grand Historian]

You can have Western Tech, with Eastern Tech Unit Group. (Like there are some African countries, like Ethiopia with Muslim Tech Group and (forgot what it was their unit type tech)

Yes, but it doesn't carry over Cavalry Ratios.