Any chance Rome can be considered for the new westernization decision?

[Chaos_TLW]

We also really need Madrid(For north africans and granada) Cyprus(For muslims) and Riga(For Russia)

Cyprus and Riga would be too easy. Russian nations can already go for Danzig to Westernize relatively easily. Mamluks would be easily able to conquer Cyprus, either while still independent, or from Venice.
Madrid, though, would be nice. Barcelona or Lisboa would work just as well, IMO.

 

[damifoe]

Vienna, prague and danzig seem to be chosen for gameplay reasons. The decision was made for Poland, Russia and the Ottomans. It forces them to push in directions they push in reality. So a city in the west of europe (Paris, Madrid, London) seems not right. Also there is not even a country of the technology groups close to this cities. It would be nice to add one italian city, but now with italy leaving the empire this might be to easy to achieve. On the other hand, danzig is very easy to achieve for Poland, but they are intented to westernize while the Ottomans are not.

 

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

Cyprus and Riga would be too easy. Russian nations can already go for Danzig to Westernize relatively easily. Mamluks would be easily able to conquer Cyprus, either while still independent, or from Venice.
Madrid, though, would be nice. Barcelona or Lisboa would work just as well, IMO.

Cyprus was the highest development western province in the region, but by your logic, Danzig would be too easy for Poland, but maybe we could do Stockholm instead of Riga

 

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

Vienna, prague and danzig seem to be chosen for gameplay reasons. The decision was made for Poland, Russia and the Ottomans. It forces them to push in directions they push in reality. So a city in the west of europe (Paris, Madrid, London) seems not right. Also there is not even a country of the technology groups close to this cities. It would be nice to add one italian city, but now with italy leaving the empire this might be to easy to achieve. On the other hand, danzig is very easy to achieve for Poland, but they are intented to westernize while the Ottomans are not.

Madrid for Granada and other north africans?

 

[PiriReis]

Madrid
Rome
Vienna
Stockholm

 

[damifoe]

Madrid for Granada and other north africans?

They dont have the decision, because they are not part of either the eastern nor the anatolian tech group, so no.

 

[Chaos_TLW]

Cyprus was the highest development western province in the region, but by your logic, Danzig would be too easy for Poland, but maybe we could do Stockholm instead of Riga

Yeah, I guess Stockholm could work, might not be too different from Danzig for practical purposes though.
Cyprus can be almost trivially conquered by the Mamluks. Just ally them, revoke guarantee, wait for the truce to end, declare war and absorb them or vassalize and annex when you need to do a quick westernization. Danzig is different, as it seems to have been put there specifically for Poland to westernize, while adding Cyprus would create a scenario that guarantees the Mamluks(or worse, the Ottos) are going to very, very quickly westernize. A province in Italy would be much better for that, to at least face some challenge.

 

[damifoe]

Yeah, I guess Stockholm could work, might not be too different from Danzig for practical purposes though.

But Stockholm compared to Danzig, Prague and Vienna was a rather small city.

 

[Marco Dandolo]

I love it when people talk about the Renaissance as if it was something tangible as a peace of clothing. No one city was 'the renaissance' as any one moment. It was only dubbed 'the renaissance' later in history to encapsulate a period of time for easier reference.

I doubt if you were to travel back in time and ask any commoner back then, they wouldn't say "Oh yeah, this is the renaissance." It was still an interesting time and period, but only for a *very* select few.

Giorgio Vasari would think different. He's the guy who uses the word "rinascita" the first time, in the mid of the 16th century, when refering to the art of Raphael and Michelangelo. So, yes, it was considered a new time and a reborn age in the class which funded and shaped it. Asking commoners doesn't count, because even today you wouldn't get a real answer in what time we are actually living in. That goes even for our ruling class. This stands in sharp contrast to the mentality of the 15th or 16th century, because the intellectual elite was convinced they lived in a time in which antiquity was revived.

 

[dherve10]

I only would add Firenze, the centre of renaissance.

Indeed, I do not think Italy needs more than one city for Westernization. I edited the original post to make this more clear. Firenze also has the benefit of not being on the coast, so it would be slightly harder to get.

 

[Boristus]

The purpose behind the new Westernization decision has nothing to do with the Renaissance; it's supposed to represent a power in Eastern Europe/the Balkans that is primarily focused on interacting with/invading Western Europe, and is thus trying to keep pace with it. After all, Russia taking Danzig, or the Ottomans conquering Vienna, would logically mean that those powers would be more vested in Westward expansion, rather than their historical Eastward path. If anything, the best province to add to the list would be Napoli, since an eastern power taking southern Italy would be carrying the same implications.

 

[ExtraCheesy]

I don't really think Muslim nations should be able to get a free westernization. It would be way too easy for many nations and kinda kill the point of the mechanic of westernizing for a lot of countries. The main reason the decision was added for eastern nations in my opinion was because westernizing normally was kinda pointless for eastern tech. The benefits were marginal at best and giving them a potentially free westernization isn't that much of a balance change and tweaks a game mechanic that would probably never be used by a player that knew better.

 

[Chaos_TLW]

I don't really think Muslim nations should be able to get a free westernization. It would be way too easy for many nations and kinda kill the point of the mechanic of westernizing for a lot of countries. The main reason the decision was added for eastern nations in my opinion was because westernizing normally was kinda pointless for eastern tech. The benefits were marginal at best and giving them a potentially free westernization isn't that much of a balance change and tweaks a game mechanic that would probably never be used by a player that knew better.

This is a good point. I still think at the very least Granada could get the option to do so, maybe a special version of the decision, in case it forms Andalusia. Would help it survive in the Iberian Peninsula and serve as a reward of sorts for successfully halting the Reconquista.

 

[Illianor123]

Maybe Granda should have a decision to westernise if it holds Lisbon, Madrid and Aragon's capital (Valencia?).

I also.agree that adding Firenze would be cool.

 

[thegreatuniter]

Maybe a harder version of the decision for Muslim tech? Or muslims owning constantinople without nationalism and converted to their religion getting Ottoman tech group (ooh, now that i think of it it seems a great idea!)
Going to post this in the suggestions forum

 

[damifoe]

The purpose behind the new Westernization decision has nothing to do with the Renaissance; it's supposed to represent a power in Eastern Europe/the Balkans that is primarily focused on interacting with/invading Western Europe, and is thus trying to keep pace with it. After all, Russia taking Danzig, or the Ottomans conquering Vienna, would logically mean that those powers would be more vested in Westward expansion, rather than their historical Eastward path. If anything, the best province to add to the list would be Napoli, since an eastern power taking southern Italy would be carrying the same implications.

I agree with that, but Napoli seems not right. The other cities Prague and Vienna are very important cities within the HRE and for the whole timeframe and Napoli can not compete with that level. I do not count Danzig here, because this city was included for the special Poland case: Of all the countries of the Western focus decision (i only count the important ones the decision was made for: Poland-Lithunia/Ottomans/Russia) Poland before 1.12 already had a unique position - as only catholic one it is way easier for them to get the western arms trade and they had a starting university, so with a -15% tech discount they almost were a western nation.

 

[WeissRaben]

I agree with that, but Napoli seems not right. The other cities Prague and Vienna are very important cities within the HRE and for the whole timeframe and Napoli can not compete with that level. I do not count Danzig here, because this city was included for the special Poland case: Of all the countries of the Western focus decision (i only count the important ones the decision was made for: Poland-Lithunia/Ottomans/Russia) Poland before 1.12 already had a unique position - as only catholic one it is way easier for them to get the western arms trade and they had a starting university, so with a -15% tech discount they almost were a western nation.

Napoli was one of the biggest cities in Europe. Right before the Plague of 1632 hit, it was the biggest, at around half a million inhabitants.

 

[Naeven]

How about any province which is Western and has a two-digit base tax in 1444?

This more or less. It should be dynamical, any province in the western region with X development should do. Tho I'd say it should atleast be 20ish.

 

[Dnote]

Whilst I would like more provinces to work with this decision, it does appear that it is a mission intended solely to make the AI look to Europe when playing those Eastern European countries.

I don't think the missions are there to make it easier for the player.

 

[Wizzington]

Far too easy for Ottomans to take.