Any advantage in Brigade-sized formations?

[EmperorBatman999]

There is still a lot of talk regarding how to build the most ideal/balanced/overpowered divisions in order to counter AI and human opponents. The idea seems to be trying to build the largest divisions possible while maintaining width in proportion to 80 and min-maxing different firepower and defense stats to reach optimum versatility or specialization.

So is there any advantage in building Brigade-sized templates? These would not be the size of a "full" division and might only consist of one or two columns.

 

[Alex_brunius]

The main advantage they have is that more divisions get more ORG.

So in great defensive terrain or forts where the enemy is not likely to surpass their defense value, they can hold out for an eternity. In doing so they will deal less damage to attackers however so it's best used in combination with massed CAS that can help them out with the damage.

Getting enough reinforcement chance for this to work on large scale means it's pretty much only possible to do as Soviet if you go for the NKVD focus.


Another advantage is that you can make better use of support artillery / stats ( since they have 0 width and you get more of them ). To make full use of this you can equip both artillery and rocket artillery, as well as run the Superior Firepower branch that boost their Soft Attack by +50% and increase their ORG more.

 

[Le Creep]

Well the best division design alway depends on your enemy. If you know your enemy is using battalion sized units, brigade sized units would work fine. If your enemy is using brigade sized units, use standard divisions etc.
I really wish we could split up and combine divisions when needed. For example if i want to split up a 9 battalion infantry divisions into three parts to use as garrisons and later recombine them when I need the full divisions firepower.

 

[TallTroll]

I really wish we could split up and combine divisions when needed.

No, you really don't. AI pathfinding will send CCA, CCB and CCR for a given Division to totally different parts of the map, and you'll never be able to reconstitute anything. Also, 4 and 5 stars don't concern themselves with the doing of mere Colonels

 

[Misaka_Complex]

If you spam cheap divisions it means that you also get to spam more volunteer forces, which is especially useful for countries such as America. I had a game where I played with Murica with Patton commanding more than 20 tank divisions abroad as "volunteers" to fight the war without directly joining the war.

 

[TheOrangeGuy]

If you spam cheap divisions it means that you also get to spam more volunteer forces, which is especially useful for countries such as America. I had a game where I played with Murica with Patton commanding more than 20 tank divisions abroad as "volunteers" to fight the war without directly joining the war.

Wow, that sounds extremely gamey

 

[Master11388]

Only real Pro's are better movability (Small Cav, Light Tank, Mot Units), reinforcement chance, and more units to cover large fronts. Imho Brigade Sized units get worse as the Game goes on (making them pretty useless after 39-40 etc.)

 

[Alex_brunius]

Only real Pro's are better movability (Small Cav, Light Tank, Mot Units), reinforcement chance,

Smaller units actually have worse reinforcement chance since only 1 division is checked for reinforcement at the same time, and since a successful reinforcement brings less width into the battle.

 

[dave1233]

Smaller units actually have worse reinforcement chance since only 1 division is checked for reinforcement at the same time, and since a successful reinforcement brings less width into the battle.

But you get more of them in a battle so you will not run into problems where your units don't reinforce in time which you get a lot with 40 width.

 

[Alex_brunius]

But you get more of them in a battle so you will not run into problems where your units don't reinforce in time which you get a lot with 40 width.

How many units you start with in battle has nothing at all to do with reinforcement chance.

 

[Daddl]

How many units you start with in battle has nothing at all to do with reinforcement chance.

I guess he means that, for example, if you take four 10-width divisions they have a higher chance of reinforcing a fight at all than a single 40-width division, which may not reinforce at all if you happen to have bad luck. It averages out though, so you may get 2 divisions joining in earlier but the other two later. Depends on the circumstances if thats worth it or not.

However, if you say only one division at a time is checked for reinforcement thats of course wrong. The tooltip says "...there is a chance every hour of battle that -one- might join".

 

[Alex_brunius]

The tooltip says "...there is a chance every hour of battle that -one- might join". I could swear I've seen multiple divisions joing at the same hour though.

In HoI3 I'm pretty sure they could (and did), and that flooding the reserves with lots of divisions to boost chance of something joining was a viable strategy.

I'm pretty sure they can't in HoI4 though, I've seen battles with 30+ AI reserve divisions still go for a long time without reserves joining (when there is room), which doesn't make sense if all of them could attempt each hour.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Doing some quick tests with 30 divisions trying to reinforce a battle, that has to be the case, otherwise a 2% reinforce chance wouldn't fill up a battle as quickly as it does for 20 times in a row.

So more divisions actually do mean you reinforce a fight faster, but the effect is lowered by the fact that only one division joins even if several could.

Interesting, It seems I might be wrong then! ( I love when you can learn something from people who spend time to test stuff in the game )

If true this does increase the worth of smaller divisions somewhat indeed.

 

[Daddl]

Interesting, It seems I might be wrong then! ( I love when you can learn something from people who spend time to test stuff in the game )

If true this does increase the worth of smaller divisions somewhat indeed.

Sorry, I posted that one too fast. After doing that for another 20 minutes I'm not too sure anymore^^ Would have to do it way more detailed and longer and compare it with what you would expect if you do the math on it.

For my subjective feeling reinforcement happens to fast if its only a single 2% chance per hour and too slow if it would be 30 times a 2% chance per hour.
Add on top of that that its always the first division in the reserve tab to join the fight if someone joins, so they are listed in the right order.

So either my feeling is off or the calculation is some middle ground between the two above.

 

[dave1233]

It does only give one division a chance to reinforce each hour but say for example you are in a 80 width battle with 2 40 width divisions. One runs out of org, so you have one division left in the battle with say 10 org, so you have until that division reaches 0 org to reinforce. If you have 8 10 width divisions, when one division reaches 0 org, you still have 7 divisions with 10 org left in the battle which buys you a lot more time to reinforce.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Sorry, I posted that one too fast. After doing that for another 20 minutes I'm not too sure anymore^^ Would have to do it way more detailed and longer and compare it with what you would expect if you do the math on it.

For my subjective feeling reinforcement happens to fast if its only a single 2% chance per hour and too slow if it would be 30 times a 2% chance per hour.
Add on top of that that its always the first division in the reserve tab to join the fight if someone joins, so they are listed in the right order.

So either my feeling is off or the calculation is some middle ground between the two above.

I did a test now where 18 reserve divisions with 12% chance each did not reinforce for 14 hours.

The odds of not a single one of them reinforcing if all are checked every hour should be 0.88^(14*18) = 1.02e-14 ( a 1 after fourteen zeroes ).

The chance if only 1 division is checked each hour is more reasonable 10%.

This should at least conclusively disprove that all of them are checked every hour I think.

It does only give one division a chance to reinforce each hour but say for example you are in a 80 width battle with 2 40 width divisions. One runs out of org, so you have one division left in the battle with say 10 org, so you have until that division reaches 0 org to reinforce. If you have 8 10 width divisions, when one division reaches 0 org, you still have 7 divisions with 10 org left in the battle which buys you a lot more time to reinforce.

Sure, but that's just one of the many benefits of having more ORG ( Which I did list separately already ), it doesn't impact the reinforcement chance.

 

[Sir Garnet]

There is still a lot of talk regarding how to build the most ideal/balanced/overpowered divisions in order to counter AI and human opponents. The idea seems to be trying to build the largest divisions possible while maintaining width in proportion to 80 and min-maxing different firepower and defense stats to reach optimum versatility or specialization.

So is there any advantage in building Brigade-sized templates? These would not be the size of a "full" division and might only consist of one or two columns.

Definitely a role for battalion to brigade sized formations, especially when manpower and equipment constraints apply.

Experimental armored brigades early on
Police
Scouts
Coastwatchers
Port/Fort token or "dummy" garrisons
Various maskirovka purposes
Speed bumps- combat alerts you to enemy presence and gives you some time.
Cadre battalions (to be upgraded to a full strength template) - though this can be abused as can some template changes
Sacrificial pinning attacks to delay enemy combat or advance.
Colonial or other garrisons - weak infantry-only brigades are common in the colonies
Getting CAS into action - (Close Air Support requires a combat to join in.
Raiding to shut down enemy supply lines or facilities by occupying territory.
Main combat forces for countries with very little manpower

BUT if on the clock (as is normal in multiplayer at least) the above uses take valuable time so it may not be worth managing tiny units. which in HOI4 creates organizational clutter. Some uses take advantage of AI weaknesses. Having battalions, regiments and brigades skulking around may also annoy other players.

and good luck to thee, Emperor Batman, in your battle with the Emperor Penguin