Anti-Papacies need fixing.

[MDHP1997]

Historically, Anti-Popes could be backed by many rulers unrelated to each other, whereas currently in-game Anti-Popes can only be supported by the ruler who recognises them as Pope, and their vassals. I think Anti-Popes could pose much more of a threat if anyone could back them.

I'm sure there are people who'll read this who have been very threatening in-game with their own Anti-Popes, and have even installed them in Rome. However I feel that, at least in my experience, Anti-Popes are nowhere as significant as they should be in-game.

What do you guys think? I'm sure it's possible for Paradox to change this.

 

[Dr Gonzo]

Agree wholeheartedly. Anti-popes could be really interesting but with the lack of events and mechanics they make almost no impact.

When an anti-pope is created all the Catholic kingdoms should have to choose an allegiance and this should have an appreciable affect on diplomacy.

 

[Sunspawn]

Also, vassals being forced by mechanics to recognize the anti-pope is also pretty badly-thought out.

 

[MDHP1997]

Yeah I think it should be like when the Great Schism is mended in-game, all Catholic rulers get a notification, and are able to either stay loyal to the Pope or change.

 

[Boodas]

Things that should be changed about Anti-Popes.

1. Moral authority shouldn't instantly drop as hard as it does. The more rulers that back said anti-pope, vassals included, should then cause the moral authority to drop as a schism is created. If a king in Ireland creates an anti-pope and no one else supports him then it shouldn't spike the MA causing massive amounts of heresy to rise.

2. Attempting to install an Anti-Pope would put you at war with the Pope and his current supporters. Supporters of the Anti-Pope would be incentivized but not forced to join on the offensive.

3. Installing the Anti-Pope should make the current Pope an Anti-Pope with his supporters still backing him. If the Ex-Pope dies then the schism would come to an end.

4. If the Anti-Papacy is destroyed by the rightful Papacy; all rulers supporting, the now defunct, anti-papacy would be immediately excommunicated.

5. Vassals under an Anti-Papacy realm should be able to force their ruler to support the rightful pope or force an abdication to a more suitable candidate. The HRE creating an Anti-Pope and all the vassals doing nothing is terrible from a gameplay prospective.

 

[Humanoid Typhoon]

Absolutely. There is some really underused value in game regarding antipopes and some really good ideas in this thread. Maybe something similar could be applied to the rise of the shia event. I don't know how many times on average I see that come and go every game but it's a lot.

 

[killcreak]

Historically, Anti-Popes could be backed by many rulers unrelated to each other, whereas currently in-game Anti-Popes can only be supported by the ruler who recognises them as Pope, and their vassals. I think Anti-Popes could pose much more of a threat if anyone could back them.

I'm sure there are people who'll read this who have been very threatening in-game with their own Anti-Popes, and have even installed them in Rome. However I feel that, at least in my experience, Anti-Popes are nowhere as significant as they should be in-game.

What do you guys think? I'm sure it's possible for Paradox to change this.

On the contrary, that'd be totally ahistorical. Pope - Anti-Pope matters were usually solved either within the clergy or with some involvement of Italian nobility and Franks/HRE. Even the papal schism that divided Catholicism never saw coalition vs. coalition wars like you're suggesting.

 

[MDHP1997]

On the contrary, that'd be totally ahistorical. Pope - Anti-Pope matters were usually solved either within the clergy or with some involvement of Italian nobility and Franks/HRE. Even the papal schism that divided Catholicism never saw coalition vs. coalition wars like you're suggesting.

I'm not suggesting coalition wars per se, merely the ability to recognise an antipope of a state that you're not immediately related to, like how Welsh rebels and the Scots supported the Avignon antipopes in the Western Schism because England supported the legitimate popes.

 

[Thrake]

This so much... I'm still craving to see some real conflicts over the Papacy. The feature is there, but clearly under used. It should not be too hard to model something akin to the Western schism and Europe picking its side beetween a Pope and two anti-popes with the current mechanics. It would probably need to make the Pope more relvant in CK2 though, so as to give an incentive to support an anti-pope rather than a Pope that might excomunicate me. As of now, the Pope feels too much of a place holder to be really worth fighting for.

 

[Sonmi]

Yeah, the whole papacy concept needs an overhaul, in fact.

Declaring war on the Pope should trigger a massive war including several Christian leaders. The Pope gets his ass kicked by random adventurers in way too many of my games, it's quite disappointing. He definitively lacks teeth as well, the Pope should exert his authority more often, and more aggressively.