Another question about trading. When to start trading? and in how many COT's?

[unmerged(32323)]

I am Austria, the year is 1540. I only have level 2 trading and no CoT's of my own.

So far I have not traded at all. I make my money from taxes and minting mostly.

When is a good time to start to trade, level 3 or 4? Also, generally, how many CoT's should I look to trade in? Usually when I play I just focus on trading in my own CoT if I have one. Any suggestions? thanks.

 

[Duke of Wellington]

Start trading whenever you can though it doesn't get good until around 3 or 4. No need to focus on your own CoTs. Go whereever you can afford it and there are free slots. Also read this guide at Wiki After I read and implemented it trading income multiplied by about 10 times.

 

[knul]

I am Austria, the year is 1540. I only have level 2 trading and no CoT's of my own.

So far I have not traded at all. I make my money from taxes and minting mostly.

When is a good time to start to trade, level 3 or 4? Also, generally, how many CoT's should I look to trade in? Usually when I play I just focus on trading in my own CoT if I have one. Any suggestions? thanks.

I'm not too experienced (completed about 5-6 GC's) but read quite a few guides and such. Hope this will answer your questions.


1) You should start trading when you are competitive. The strenght of your merchants is determined by a couple of factors, of which stability, Trade Efficiency and Trade tech level are the most important. Generally, when your Trade Efficiency is comparable to your competitors, you can start trading without losing too much merchants.

2) The number of CoT you should trade in should be all But start slowly. Put your merchants in CoT with the greatest revenue compared to cost. For example, a CoT of value 400 with merchant placement cost 30 is worse than a CoT of value 300 with merchant placement cost 15. Of course, if you have lots of money, just put the merchants in the highest value CoTs.
You should aim for 5 merchants in a CoT. When you can keep 5 in a CoT, replacing kicked-out merchants, you can see if you can expand into another CoT. That's how I do it. I start with placing merchants in a 2-3 cheap CoTs (cheap to place merchants that is) and when they have 5 merchants, whenever I have 6 merchants I send them to another CoT. In the end, you can have 5 merchants in every CoT you know. This works in single player, I don't play multiplayer so this strategy might be invalid for MP.

 

[unmerged(49521)]

You should aim for 5 merchants in a CoT. When you can keep 5 in a CoT, replacing kicked-out merchants, you can see if you can expand into another CoT.

That is what I heard, too.

However, I wonder whether this is really the best way to do it. If I understand correctly it is 4 times more probable that your merchant will be targeted when you have 4 merchants (as compared to 1 merchant). On the other hand if you have 1 merchant in each of 4 CoT - maybe the risk of being targeted is the same? Does 4x1=1x4? Or is it even more likely that you will be targeted at level 4?

My experience tells me that it is much easier to have one merchant in each of, say, 4 CoT than to have 4 in one CoT. So 4x1 does not equal 1x4. Sometimes you even forget you sent them to a distant CoT, but there he is, at the lowest levl, working quietly byt constantly. Is it just my false impression or does anyone else experience it, too?

And in the beginning od a game, if you play a minor state, you do not have too much money nor too many merchants.

marek

 

[unmerged(15337)]

My experience tells me that it is much easier to have one merchant in each of, say, 4 CoT than to have 4 in one CoT. So 4x1 does not equal 1x4. Sometimes you even forget you sent them to a distant CoT, but there he is, at the lowest levl, working quietly byt constantly. Is it just my false impression or does anyone else experience it, too?

It depends on how active the COTs are -- how many nations attempt to send merchants there, and with what frequency, and the trade efficiencies of those nations. If all these factors were equal, it should be true that your 4 merchants would all have equal chance of being kicked out, no matter how they were distributed among the COTs. In practice, though, these factors never are equally balanced. Some COTs are more heavily targeted by AI nations than others, and the nations that trade in some are more advanced in trade efficiency than in some others. IMHO it's a delicate balancing act by the player that he has to judge from experience.

My usual practice is to work first at my "local" COT -- that is, the one which controls my capital, as it usually only costs 1 or 2 ducats to send a merchant there. Then I try any of a few less heavily targeted COTs, especially watching the history log for annexations (as these often free up several spots in COTs).

 

[unmerged(53166)]

Generally I don't start trading for the first 100 years because the CoTs that I'm generally in (Genoa, Mecklemburg, Flanders, Novgorod), are really weak.

Once I'm close to level 3 I generally start trading and once I reach Level 3 I try for a monopoly in my home CoT.

I know everyone hates the auto-send option but once you are firmly in control of your home CoT, I just leave it on so that I can kick everyone out and dominate 100% of the trade.

You just have to watch the computer because sometimes they get very stupid. I was losing a lot of money in my Italian game and I couldn't figure out way. Then I saw that the AI was sending merchants to Malacca at 30 ducats a piece. Stupid computer...

 

[knul]

That is what I heard, too.

However, I wonder whether this is really the best way to do it. If I understand correctly it is 4 times more probable that your merchant will be targeted when you have 4 merchants (as compared to 1 merchant). On the other hand if you have 1 merchant in each of 4 CoT - maybe the risk of being targeted is the same? Does 4x1=1x4? Or is it even more likely that you will be targeted at level 4?

As Jwolf says, it depends on the competition in the CoTs. It's much better to have 4 merchants in a non-contested CoT than 4 distributed. For example, as Spain or Portugal you can have a CoT in the America's that is unknown to anybody except the locals. In these CoTs it's simple to have 5 merchants. Venice's CoT, on the other hand, is almost always heavily contested.

My experience tells me that it is much easier to have one merchant in each of, say, 4 CoT than to have 4 in one CoT. So 4x1 does not equal 1x4. Sometimes you even forget you sent them to a distant CoT, but there he is, at the lowest levl, working quietly byt constantly. Is it just my false impression or does anyone else experience it, too?

I haven't experienced that. But some experienced people have done some very thorough testing:

http://dhost.info/arsud/mediawiki-1..._and_trade_tech_effect_on_merchant_stickiness

It appears that Trade tech level, Trade Efficiency and mercantilsm slider are important variabels that determine how easy your merchants are kicked out. Number of merchants in a CoT doesn't matter, I think. May be it's because how memory works: when you see that lone merchant in a CoT you've forgotten ever sending a merchant to, you think "cool!". While if a lone merchant is kicked out of the CoT, changes are you never notice it. I don't say you have bad memory, but people make such memory errors. But you could be right.

And in the beginning od a game, if you play a minor state, you do not have too much money nor too many merchants.

I don't see how this is relevant to the distribution of merchants.

A remark to when to start trading: early in the game there are a lot of minors (french and germans ones come to mind), each sending merchants around. Therefore early in the game it's hard to trade because every minor is competing for space. Later, when a number of minors are gone, the competition is less. So early trading is not worth it.

 

[unmerged(15337)]

I know everyone hates the auto-send option but once you are firmly in control of your home CoT, I just leave it on so that I can kick everyone out and dominate 100% of the trade.

I mean no disrespect, but quite honestly this strategy doesn't make sense to me. You waste both money and merchants with the autosend option, as you noted later in your post. Further, even if you are successful at complete dominance of your COT, after a while wouldn't it close due to lack of competitive activity? I agree that personal management of your merchants is very tedious and occasionally highly irritating, but I can't imagine you can be successful at trading without it.

 

[unmerged(49521)]

1. As Jwolf says, it depends on the competition in the CoTs.

2. I don't see how this is relevant to the distribution of merchants.

1. yes, of course. maybe I should emphasise, that my question assumed caeteris paribus

2. I wanted to point out that as a minor nation you do not really have many opportunities to send merchants far away, since you may not have sea access (Bavaria, Saxony) and sending one merchant to Shanghai may cost more than all your census tax from one year. Kicking him out would be a national disaster

vino

 

[Stolen Rutters]

I have single player experience only. I am usually too busy with wars and Manufactories before the age of exploration begins to trade too much.

For early game trading, I start small and only trade when an opportunity pops up, like if I discover American or African COTs from capturing the Portugese or Spaniard capitals in war. My favorites are Zanzibar and Ivoria if I do trade early (assuming I capture Lisbon in war and Portugal's maps reach that far). The first century, I am saving up my census ducats for wars of expansion and Manufactories so I don't really trade too much early game. I tend not to concentrate on trade since sacking enemy provinces tends to dominate any other source of income for me.

The Asian ones and the one in Mexico aren't the greatest either but you will push your trade efficiency above most of the local traders if you pick up trade 2 anytime in the 1400s. Non-European COTs are more expensive though so you have to weigh the cost/benefit of each one as they grow and dissapear. For example, the one in Zacatecas will be sized well over 600 (and over 800 at times) until another COT pops up in the Americas. Once it readjusts to 350-400 trade value range, Zacatecas falls off my COT radar until I develop position in other, more profitable COTs.

 

[unmerged(53166)]

I mean no disrespect, but quite honestly this strategy doesn't make sense to me. You waste both money and merchants with the autosend option, as you noted later in your post. Further, even if you are successful at complete dominance of your COT, after a while wouldn't it close due to lack of competitive activity? I agree that personal management of your merchants is very tedious and occasionally highly irritating, but I can't imagine you can be successful at trading without it.

With the main European CoTs, you generally do not have to worry about them disappearing.

In fact, I tried using that strategy once to my advantage and had no luck. Playing as Venice, I tried to get the CoT in Vienna to disappear because it was taking away from my trade. After years of dominating the CoT and ensuring that no one else got in, nothing happened. I just continued to get 100% of the trade.

I have never seen a European CoT disappear unless it was through an event effect. Maybe I'm wrong on this (maybe someone has seen it) but I tried real hard to get them to disappear and nothing happened. In addition, with European CoTs you can rarely ensure that no one else gets in. With so many countries and so much money to be made....eventually someone will get in.

As I stated before, I only use the auto-send in certain situations, e.g. when I have like 60% of the trade in my home CoT and I want to get 100%. Once I get 100%, I immediately turn it off because the AI is retarded and starts sending merchants to Shanghai and Malacca.

Nor would I use the auto-send to try and get into European markets. The AI is completely incompetent and splits your merchants between several CoTs. Granted, when you get 12 merchants per year you can afford some leeway but I don't want the AI to go all out on like five different CoTs.

So yea...basically I only use it when I am firmly established in my home CoT and I want to get 100%.

 

[DSYoungEsq]

Generally I don't start trading for the first 100 years because the CoTs that I'm generally in (Genoa, Mecklemburg, Flanders, Novgorod), are really weak.

Once I'm close to level 3 I generally start trading and once I reach Level 3 I try for a monopoly in my home CoT.

I know everyone hates the auto-send option but once you are firmly in control of your home CoT, I just leave it on so that I can kick everyone out and dominate 100% of the trade.

You just have to watch the computer because sometimes they get very stupid. I was losing a lot of money in my Italian game and I couldn't figure out way. Then I saw that the AI was sending merchants to Malacca at 30 ducats a piece. Stupid computer...

This is poor advice on all levels, I'm sorry.

First: about Auto-Send. DON'T DO IT!!!!!! The computer, as Alessandro notes, is stupid. It does very wasteful things, using up huge chunks of money better spent on nice things like manufactories and ships and stuff. It pisses off other countries, who hate it when they have their own merchants competed out of their own CoT's, the result of which is you end up with Trade Embargoes that you didn't intend on, severely impacting your income.

Second: You NEVER want to have 100% of the trade in a European CoT. This will result in the eventual loss of the Center. There is a specific algorithm for this; in essence you want most if not all the slots filled with traders. Monopolize if you like (it gives you added merchants), but don't do so for the purpose of receiving the added trade from the unfilled slots. Save that for New World CoT's. And trust me, it happens. I've seen it more than once.

As for the Original Post:

1. Start sending traders right off the bat. Use the empty-slot method, because it is simply the cheapest alternative. Many here prefer to avoid the really highly competitive Centers, like Veneto and Liguria, because you are more likely to be kicked out with all the merchants knocking on the door trying to get in. It makes much more sense to have three merchants quietly earning a portion of the trade from a 100d Center than have one merchant in and out of a 300d Center. Look for Centers where fewer countries have merchants present.

2. Early on, don't look to keep too many traders in a Center, unless it is a Center that you own. Austria doesn't have a Center to start (one appears later by event), so you are forced to send to Veneto as the cheapest location, where you have no competitive advantage. Instead, look to find empty slots all over the continent, because the fewer the places you hold, the less likely that an attempt to gain entry to a specific Center will result in you losing a merchant. Austria doesn't have an advantage in Trade tech (like Venice and Genoa do), so you are playing for the long-haul here.

3. Keep an eye on your budget. Remember that even at 6d or 7d a shot, if you send all the merchants you are entitled to out in a year, you are talking a substantial portion of your yearly income at the start of the game. Don't feel compelled to do that. But you are missing a bet if you don't gain trade income early; you put yourself substantially behind other nations in the technology war. Remember: you are converting Treasury to investment with merchants, so it isn't just a matter of calculating a "payback" of cost.

knul, the number of merchants DOES have an effect, but it isn't out of proportion to the simple fact that you have more merchants. That is to say, if you have 4 out of 20 slots, your chance is increased over having 1 out of 20 slots, but its a proportional increase.

 

[unmerged(53166)]

DSYoung

As I was saying in my earlier post, have you ever seen a European CoT disappear that was not part of an event effect?

In my numerous games that I've played in the AGCEEP, I've never seen it happen - ever. Sure, I've seen New World CoTs disappear but never European ones.

Fine....reject my advice. But I am clearly doing something right cause I keep winning

 

[unmerged(15337)]

I just completed a 1.09 GC. Both the Holland and Svealand COTs disappeared due to inactivity. European COTs can and will disappear, just as any others, without steady competition.

 

[George LeS]

IMO, there is a small case for Autosend.
1. I sometimes use it when I'm very wealthy, & getting bored with the merchant game.

2. I'll often turn it on in a difficult war, as I tend to forget merchants then.

3. Is anyone else bothered by the way the game always jumps to Jan 11, if you autosave yearly? I've found that one way to prevent that, is to turn on autosave, & set the message, telling you a merchant has been auto-sent, on "display & pause". This always pauses on Jan 1.

Of course, none of these is of much use in the 15th C. Then, open slots all the way (go to Venice only if there are 2 openings -- rare, but it happens).

 

[DSYoungEsq]

DSYoung

As I was saying in my earlier post, have you ever seen a European CoT disappear that was not part of an event effect?

In my numerous games that I've played in the AGCEEP, I've never seen it happen - ever. Sure, I've seen New World CoTs disappear but never European ones.

Fine....reject my advice. But I am clearly doing something right cause I keep winning

Alessandro: If you read my post carefully, I mentioned that I have seen European CoT's dissapear through lack of competition. It happens, indeed someone about a year or so ago here computed the exact factors involved. It's a simple mathematical formula, with inexorable workings.

And only a moron cannot "win" this game. It's absurdly simple in Single-player mode, once you get the basic hang of the economy and understand how to avoid losing wars to the AI. Indeed, the relative ease of the game in SP would be a good reason not to purchase the game if it wasn't for the extremely varied experiences you can have learning history through playing new countries.

But if you want to find out how well you play the game, go try Multi-Player against humans. Use Auto-send while you do: I want to see the results. :rofl:

 

[diskoerekto]

I am playing vanilla, and every time I play a country in Europe, all CoTs in Europe closes due to inactivity one after another.

Then 1 opens and stays for 10-30 years and closes again to reopen again somewhere else. that CoT usually is more than 2600 ducats worth

 

[wryun]

I am playing vanilla, and every time I play a country in Europe, all CoTs in Europe closes due to inactivity one after another.

Then 1 opens and stays for 10-30 years and closes again to reopen again somewhere else. that CoT usually is more than 2600 ducats worth

That's quite odd - what scenario are you playing? Are you monopolising a lot? Have you killed all the AI nations ?