Another Irish Minor game gone bad

[unmerged(197061)]

Just came on to post this and saw someone was having trouble with a Munster game as well. I thinky my situation is rather different, although it shares a frightening England.

I've been playing a Leinster game for fun between working on an Austria AAR. I started in 1399, HttT 4.0. I've made it to 1469. I own Leinster, Munster, Finistre, and Vendee, all but the last having become cores. My techs are 1-2 levels behind most of Europe, but after gaining those two extra cores (and Breton as an accepted culture) I've been able to afford to keep 4-5 merchants in Lubeck, greatly increasing my income. Leinster is a Despotic Monarchy (thanks to a pretender that took over after ocupying Leinster for nearly ten years while I was in the throes of a succession war over my country between Castille and France). My NI is Shrew Commerce and I'm working to get a second NI.

Relations with England are ok. They have the reconquer Normandy mission and go to war with France occassionally, but don't accumulate enough war exhaustion for me to take a shot at them. Revolt risks in Ireland are very low and my sliders don't allow me to get spies for some time. Castille is a lukewarm ally, trustworthy in defensive wars but less so in offensive (as I learned trying to get them to help me against a weak Portugal).

I have pretty good relations with all allies and not too many countries are likely to dow me with Castille protecting Leinster, so I'm not at too much danger of being destroyed, but at the same time I have no idea where to take the game.

Some screenshots showing Leinster's situation.

 

[HNT]

Just came on to post this and saw someone was having trouble with a Munster game as well. I thinky my situation is rather different, although it shares a frightening England.

I've been playing a Leinster game for fun between working on an Austria AAR. I started in 1399, HttT 4.0. I've made it to 1469. I own Leinster, Munster, Finistre, and Vendee, all but the last having become cores. My techs are 1-2 levels behind most of Europe, but after gaining those two extra cores (and Breton as an accepted culture) I've been able to afford to keep 4-5 merchants in Lubeck, greatly increasing my income. Leinster is a Despotic Monarchy (thanks to a pretender that took over after ocupying Leinster for nearly ten years while I was in the throes of a succession war over my country between Castille and France). My NI is Shrew Commerce and I'm working to get a second NI.

Relations with England are ok. They have the reconquer Normandy mission and go to war with France occassionally, but don't accumulate enough war exhaustion for me to take a shot at them. Revolt risks in Ireland are very low and my sliders don't allow me to get spies for some time. Castille is a lukewarm ally, trustworthy in defensive wars but less so in offensive (as I learned trying to get them to help me against a weak Portugal).

I have pretty good relations with all allies and not too many countries are likely to dow me with Castille protecting Leinster, so I'm not at too much danger of being destroyed, but at the same time I have no idea where to take the game.

Some screenshots showing Leinster's situation.
[/URL]

I envy your game! I'm with Munster basically at the edge of being destroyed, both militarily and economically. I need a miracle to survive until 1469. You can probably start a colonial adventure.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=464861

 

[unmerged(64629)]

I think the key is to go ruthelessly against the other Irish minor early in the game.

Once that's done, bid you time until France DoW them (or they DoW a still allied Scotland) then go to war with them. You want to do that BEFORE they can use blockades or you are screwed. As the war will start, they should not have a huge army on the island. Take Meath and ask for it often (check their answer) until they agree. They might land some troops but nothing you can't handle and since you are controlling one of their provinces they should get WE and not you (This is why you need to do this before Naval Tech 9).

If all goes well (it did for me a while ago in IN but no changes in HTTT should make it much harder) you get to form Irland... still a weakling, but a proud weakling.

Btw once you've done that you might want to try and get neutral relations with england again or at least not get into a war with them.

 

[unmerged(101035)]

I think the key is to go ruthelessly against the other Irish minor early in the game.

Once that's done, bid you time until France DoW them (or they DoW a still allied Scotland) then go to war with them. You want to do that BEFORE they can use blockades or you are screwed. As the war will start, they should not have a huge army on the island. Take Meath and ask for it often (check their answer) until they agree. They might land some troops but nothing you can't handle and since you are controlling one of their provinces they should get WE and not you (This is why you need to do this before Naval Tech 9).

If all goes well (it did for me a while ago in IN but no changes in HTTT should make it much harder) you get to form Irland... still a weakling, but a proud weakling.

Btw once you've done that you might want to try and get neutral relations with england again or at least not get into a war with them.

Well, the basic tactic is good, but not exactly. Back in the day, England would only build enough cogs to send weak amounts of troops over (like 2-4k at a time) to Ireland at once, but for a few game versions now they not only start with more cogs, they also build more than Irish force limits can keep up with (15-20k at once). They also WILL get the "conquer Ireland" mission, so relations are irrelevant (unless you delete the mission). They will come, period.

That said, what you want to do at first is still the same... pummel and punish the Irish minors ruthlessly. If the war is nice and distracting, you don't even need to declare war, you actually just need to cause a spy defecting to get Meath (probably safer than a DOW and waiting for peace before you have even formed Ireland)... but either way, the main tactic isn't so much to count on defeating the troops Britain can ship, but to take the naval force limits modifier and basically count on minting for more ships over decent early game tech advances. If they can't reach you, they can't conquer you, no matter how often they DOW you (which will be repeatedly no matter what thanks to the English/GB specific mission). Eventually, (through clever inheritances, conquests, or colonizing) you can get to the point where you don't just sink their ships and wait for the white peace.

 

[unmerged(64629)]

Okay, I've just done it in HTTT and it's pretty much the same but a little bit less lucky and therefore a little bit easier.

Since the goal is to help the Irish minor player I'll post it here as a mini AAR.

First thing first, I chose Connaught instead of Lienster or Munster but they all have the same money to live with and as far as I know pretty much the same sliders (Max Decentralization for the win!.... NOT!)

Also I want to stress that achieving the Ireland dream is a matter of luck since the primary aggressor will always be England and during the (long) war you will receive War Subsidies and those will make or break you.

Anyway, started the game move the slider toward Centralization (got lucky and got -1 Stab). Had no adviser to hire so I used what Culture I had to get a lv1 Statesmen. Request alliance to Brittany and a few other, all refuse except Brittany.

I recruited as soon as possible one more unit of infantry and DoW Munster. Brittany scarp the alliance but it's still one on one. Me having 2k soldiers I win easy with Leinster deciding to join the war (by DoWing Munster) a little too late (was already sieging the province). Once captured, I annex Munster. Once that's done I look in awe as Leinster completely disband their army.

I don't need any more invitation and promptly DoW Leinster (No allies or guarantees). The war is without surprise followed by an annexation. Tyrone was another matter since it had been guaranteed by England I could not DoW them.

Here the things start to get muddy. (I.e.: Here's I had to reload a few times to get it right). In the first games England would DoW me as soon as a revolt would pop-up and proceed to take everything with the help of Portugal. I had some luck with my solution. With those 2 new provinces you can "afford" (I.e.: By minting) 2 more units (for a total of 4) At that point I had 1 Cav and 3 Inf and England had an army of 3 Cav in Meath.

So after a few tries England decide to DoW France (who had just DoW'd Provence). This part is very important. You need to wait until the war is fully joined before doing anything. In this case it's rather easy to see, England will pull their troop from Meath and move them to the front since they consider you not being a threat. The next step is to try and bypass England's allies (In this case only Portugal). Lucky for me (again) Tyrone was right there and guaranteed by England and since England see me as a little fly it's sure to jump into the war.

So we DoW Tyrone and as expected England join on their side. England, being busy in France, send a mere token force of 1K soldier to help their "friend". I ignore England and focus on Tyrone until it's annexed. Once that's done I move to eliminate the England token force and siege Meath (and capture it). Here's a screen shot of what it's look like after Meath fell.

Once that's done, it's a game of waiting. France folded to England giving them Normandy but England made very little effort to move against me (sending some more little 1K army) while asking over and over for a white peace as their War Exhaustion rise.

One nice little thing about going toe to toe with England is that many country offer you alliance in the lapse of time until I got Meath, Castille, Burgundy, Scotland and France all proposed alliance to me. I accepted Scotland, Castille and France. Unfortunately Scotland got creamed by England later.

Also another nice and even essential bonus is that since England is the "bad" guy around these part in 1400's, you will get War Subsidies form your friends. In my case it was Britanny (about 1.5$/mo) early on until they themselves DoW England for Normandy and then France (about 4.3$/mo (more than my entire budget)) until the end of the war.

Now England will most likely get frustrated and send a big army your way. For me this was both a problem and a great opportunity to raise the War Score.

About 10 years into the siege, England land about 18K troops at once. After I choked on my water I immediately recruited 2K more Regular army (Remember I'm flush with cash from War Sub) pushing my army at 6K and recruit about 10K mercenaries. Once I crushed that army and still had about 9K soldiers, England folded and gave me Meath and 50$.

Here's the Status just before the peace (Note that the WE of England has been this high for the last 5 years or so).

and the peace deal:

Culminating in:

All this give you a relatively poor state slightly crippled by debt (had 4 loans outstanding all worth 19$) and some inflation. To be honest I prefer playing straight up OPM in Germany, more fun and still easier.

State of the country at formation:

Hope this helped.

 

[unmerged(101035)]

Hmmm... that is one way to do it, but (and I see that they had 12 cogs, and like I said in my HTTT Irish games so far they will usually have more even by the time you only need one province to form Ireland... but either way 12 is enough for a problem). I think you had extra fortune on your side in that they only sent the 1k army. Often, from what I have observed (unless I am unlucky as opposed to you being lucky of course), the AI country will now send the piddly stacks to alliance partners and not the alliance leader, meaning that typically you will see a 12k army heading your way (as opposed to, say... allying with France, in which case you may indeed only see funneled 1k armies over and over). That's 12k at a time, by the way, not just 12 and done. Although, you can avoid this and claim Meath via war (as opposed to defection) a LOT easier if you make sure that England's army was utterly destroyed other than mercs over on French land (or they are busily sieging at the very least). If they are just "stuck" on the (English) mainland with a 12k+ army, they probably WILL send the whole cog amount over to you (which is why I go the defection/naval forces route). Infiltrate administration would go a long way to make a war method more reliable, so that you can attack them at about the point they don't have anything available to ship in the 12 cogs.

Afterwards, whichever route you go, don't forget that England will be all over you sans the French distraction... so you generally need to use the navy navy navy and more navy method regardless of how you unify Ireland.

Either way, yes indeed... you can expect to be in a rather bad economic situation, but you at least have ways to get stronger (and can catch up in tech later just like you can with any country).

EDIT: Note the 17% war exhaustion with only 16k troops left total... that's about the point you'd have to get em at to release Meath with a 10% war score. The 16k troop count had best be rapidly created individual merc stacks (which will even now result in 1k shipped at a time), because if they have an actual 16k army just sitting on the mainland, it'll probably start tearing you up with 12 cogs. Infiltrate admin will also make it obvious when they run out of "real" troops and recruit mere mercs (at which point you can pull off large land fights much easier) Don't try this with a fully assembled non merc 16k stack sitting at home (with 16k mercs on the way)... you have to hit em at the right moment now that the AI isn't ignorant of cogs anymore.

 

[unmerged(64629)]

true, and btw they did send a big army as I mentioned in my post (18K at once).

But I'll be sure to try the Defection route later on (but no matter what I had to fight England as Tyrone was Guaranteed by England)

 

[sprites]

or in one of my tries i had a little castille distraction , they insulted me then dowed without a CB ^^
just as bad as england

 

[Trin Tragula]

What I allways do when playing Ireland is save up for a CoT With the current HTTT defines that's easy enough to do early on and gives you a nice edge vs the English.
Apart from this annexing all the Irish minors as soon as possible is good advice (atleast one of them deserve a day 1 dow) and hope England doesn't get conquer Ireland as their first mission. I also tend to use lots of mercenaries (funded by the cot) to make up for pittifull manpower).
Now I'm not sure if this was good advice or not as I didn't have time to read your post But it does tend to work well every time for me.
The real trouble starts after formation imho when England will get their annex ireland mission and invade with 20+ stacks. These need to be decimated at all cost an alliance with Scotland or France might be a lot of help as well. In order to survive as Ireland one pretty much have to break England early on imho. This is unfortunate as I'd rather compete with them for a colonial empire myself but their oft-repeated annex Ireland mission kills coexistence as a viable option.

 

[HNT]

Okay, I've just done it in HTTT and it's pretty much the same but a little bit less lucky and therefore a little bit easier.

Since the goal is to help the Irish minor player I'll post it here as a mini AAR.

First thing first, I chose Connaught instead of Lienster or Munster but they all have the same money to live with and as far as I know pretty much the same sliders (Max Decentralization for the win!.... NOT!)

Also I want to stress that achieving the Ireland dream is a matter of luck since the primary aggressor will always be England and during the (long) war you will receive War Subsidies and those will make or break you. [...]
I recruited as soon as possible one more unit of infantry and DoW Munster. Brittany scarp the alliance but it's still one on one. Me having 2k soldiers I win easy with Leinster deciding to join the war (by DoWing Munster) a little too late (was already sieging the province). Once captured, I annex Munster. Once that's done I look in awe as Leinster completely disband their army.

I don't need any more invitation and promptly DoW Leinster (No allies or guarantees). The war is without surprise followed by an annexation. Tyrone was another matter since it had been guaranteed by England I could not DoW them.

Here the things start to get muddy. (I.e.: Here's I had to reload a few times to get it right). [...] So after a few tries England decide to DoW France (who had just DoW'd Provence). This part is very important. You need to wait until the war is fully joined before doing anything. [....] Hope this helped.

Thanks a lot for sharing your experience. I basically did the same i.e. rapid annex of Leinster and Connaught and then things got muddy, and they still are for me. Unfortunately, England did not start any wars on the continent. They focussed on slaughtering the Scots and on fighting me. Did England also have the "conquer Ireland mission" in your game? I could imagine that these missions really play an important role for the English priorities.

BTW I also recieved loads of war subsidies, really funny.

 

[unmerged(64629)]

I'm honestly not sure what was their missions near the end of the war but their first was recover Normandy (which they succeeded). And then Vassalize Scotland... Maybe I got lucky again??

 

[HNT]

I'm honestly not sure what was their missions near the end of the war but their first was recover Normandy (which they succeeded). And then Vassalize Scotland... Maybe I got lucky again??

I finally formed Ireland in 1458. I used your tactic to conquer Ulster and just wait. That took only a year or so since my loyal ally Castille put up a good fight.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=464861

 

[unmerged(64629)]

Very nice!

Btw, I tried the Spy spam way and it ended up costing more than the warrior way (You need to get lucky and then you have no way to intervene in England land troop to free it province which they do, at war or not) and you need a lot of cash and some slider move to pull it off. Also you do not get the very nice War Subsidies

Ultimately it worked, but I was poorer and with more Inflation that with the warrior way.