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I think it’s time to see the governments implemented in the next version of MDS, but there is still a degree of conflict over which government is in and which is not. In the end, I think we should rebuild the government system with the MDS in mind, and not simply rename and reform the religion system. In short, we should exploit every aspect of the religious EU2 system while taking into account these irrepressible characteristics. For example, if you use the protestant, reformed and catholic religions and turn them into 3 western types of government not too dissimilar, then these 3 governments will eventually begin to hate eachother for no apparent reason.

Also, a particluar trait of the EU2 religion system is the way it deals with the rise of protestantism and refomism. Certainly, we ought to be able to use these inherent aspect of this game to our advantage? How? By setting the date for the lutheran event somewhere in 2050, so that we can have a totally different type of government appear in 2050. After all the game is supposed to last untill 2200. By introducing new governments along the timeline, we can change the setting later on in the game and keep it fresh whether you play in 2002 or 2102. Also, these new governments, along with changing economical circumstances, create some acceptable backgrounds for WW3.

For modifying the religion system of EU2, I’ve come up with this list:

Catholic - Western Democracy
Counter reform Catholic - Capitalist Imperialsim
Protestant - *
Reformed - *
Orthodox - Orthodox Autocracy
Sunni Islam - Dar al Islam
Shiite Islam - *
Confucianism - Post Ideologic Asianism
Hinduism - Hindu/Asian Cosmopolitism
Budhism - *
Paganism - Introversion

Note:

I prefer deviding world visions in general terms in this case, because each useage of a slot for a government increases the chance that government normally on friendly terms are going to dislike eachother. Particulary it is a good way of dealing with the currenct Euro-USA friction. In the end, if the USA and Europe have the same government, they’ll start liking eachother, no matter if there was some friction before.
I was very general in suggesting the modifications for Sunni Islam, Confucianism and Hinduism, and quite possible unclear what I really meant with these governments. With Hinduism and Confucianism modified, I’d wanted to express that post-cold war reassessment is the key to these governments. Dar al Islam means something like the Arab World, if I remember correctly. Again, this revolves around post cold war reassessment. It is my oppinion that destinction between Sunni and Shiite will become less important than other considerations.
By now, you’d noticed the 4 blanks on the list. These can be used to create new, future governments. Please note that I’ve chosen Budhism, Shiite Protestand and Reformed as blanks for a reason. Budhism can be used to represent a new government originating in Asia, while Shiite means a reform of Islam. The makeup of religious sliders plays a major role here. A Confucianist country has both Hindu and Budhist sliders too, as well as Muslim and Christian sliders. This means that if a Confucianist country suddenly has to deal with Budhist provinces appearing, it will have to make a decision. If you would totally randomise my above list, and all of the ‘new’ governments would be over the Confucianism, Hinduism and Budhism slots, while the nation has a government that used to be Catholic, the nation wouldn’t even be able to adjust sliders to the newly appearing governments.

Taking into account the sliders that players have to deal with is only one of the subtle factors we have to deal with when designing the government system. Also, coming up with all of the actual governments, their workings and background is a major undertaking. Considerations like the ones I’ve just talked about are the basis for a good government system.
 

unmerged(10802)

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Good point with the sliders.
I'll need an explanation some of them (confu+hindu)
What is Introversion? 'Anarchy' would be best for paganism though not quite anarchy though the next worst thing. Like its a government for civil war torn (pardon my French) shit holes and whatnot.
 

Kyran

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I think we should keep it the way it is, i see this as a rough draft for an even bigger thing. If E&E ever does rise from the abyss then we could definately bring MDS to its penultimate there. I do admit the Government System does have its flaws, but not much physically has been done about it. We've all been bickering about this far too much. I say we actually start working on making something more than a list of basic governments than can be destinctly separated.

BTW does the protestants and soforth hating eachother continue if you put the Edict of Tolerance flag in the game?
 

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Well, couldn't we just start working on the governments available in 1991/2002, and leave the future governments for later?

Introversion deals with nations that have very little contact with other countries, particulary culture- and ideology wise.

About communism, in the end, it's just an extention of Western thinking. It's all strongly based on the Huntingtonian way of defining world civilizations. Russia would be Orthodox Autocracy in 2002, would that be a major difference with communism?

I don't know if the edict of tolerance limits hatred between the protestants and catholics, to be earnest, I didn't thought about that mostly because I wanted CRC in.
 

unmerged(10802)

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For the armies it would be good to have artilery as special forces which come in hundreds not tens as this would help in the city fighting sieges have become and whatnot.

There is no communism in todays world to the best of my knowledge just 'stalinism'
 

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I really can't say for sure if the Edict of Tolerance stops Protestants and Catholics from hating eachother. My EU2 manual is collecting dust somewhere..

Communism remains an option if either protestant or reformed is used.

I still think that presenting things in a clash of civilizations context leaves us better off, but I guess this takes bucketloads of research to implement, something I didn't do.

So consider this thread closed. I will bring the topic up if and when I can come up with something more concrete. I put my trust in you guys.
 
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I came up with a system that I thought definitive in my last days before I ran away and didn't return.

Something that MKJ brought up was that you want to give different tasks to the Religion/government setting and the DP Sliders. One for economics, one for governmental form.

For example, if religions=economics, you couldn't have a "Communist" thing. You could have Socialism, the economic principle behind Communism, but you couldn't include the governmental views of Communism. Likewise you couldn't have anything like a "Republic" or a "Democracy." Free-market capitalism, or total government control of goods, yes, but the methods in place for choosing who runs the country, that's in the DP sliders.

I like that one a lot better (i think it's the one i picked) because governments, as an example, my own, really don't care if their friends are democratic or not, despite claiming to endorse "democracy"--the big thing is how open they are to nationwide economic domination. I say that because DP Sliders can't affect relations. You can have events that increase the chance of economic change if the nation is leaning towards "democracy" on its DP thing, but the economic things are all that matter worldwide.
 
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The MegaMethod

DP Sliders/Society

Plutocracy vs. Aristocracy
Dictatorship vs. Democracy

Decentralization vs. Centralization
Same

Narrowmindedness vs. Innovativeness
Same

Free Trade vs. Mercantilism
Economic Openness in Trade vs. Protectionism

Defensive vs. Offensive
Same


Naval vs. Land
Same

Free Subjects vs. Serfdom
Free Speech vs. Police State

Quantity vs. Quality
Same


Religion Setting/Economy

Traditional = Total Gov't Control
Halfbreed = Containing elements of free market

Catholic - Free-Market
Counter reform Catholic - *
Protestant - Socialism
Reformed - Reformed Socialism (halfbreed)
Orthodox - Reformed Traditional (halfbreed)
Sunni Islam - Islamic Traditional
Shiite Islam - Christian Traditional
Confucianism - *
Hinduism - *
Budhism - *
Paganism - Barter-economy (gov't apathy)

Maybe we should change the positions of these economies to go for CB's and switching possibilities. And is paganism really supposed to be there? I'd call an average barter economy a free market but everyone told me barter.

Also, provincial religion/economy settings should now represent which form of economy is in place in that province rather than the economic views of its populace.

Thus, if economic system A was grossly intolerant of economic system B, an A government would not be able to tolerate B communities--much like Sunni nations can not adjust Hindu tolerance. Thus, a revolutionarily B province would be more rebellious. This system unfortnately does not take into account military force and its role in adjusting society the hard way.

By the way, I just thought I'd bring up my silly old plan that I don't think I ever mentioned--religions standing for currencies (Dollar, Euro, Yen, Pound). Think of the revolutions. hoho:D
 
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I really like this idea, it really correlates with the fact that advantages and disadvantages in the EU2 religion system are moslty of an economic nature (bonusses for tax and trade). But if a 'Traditional' economy implies total government control, isn't a secular traditional economy (confucianism) the same as socialism?

Paganism - Barter economy is a good one, it represents a collapse of the economic system, currency has hyper-inflated and therefore useless. Interaction between government and the economy is gone.

As long as the system represents what you have said about it, i.e. : "Also, provincial religion/economy settings should now represent which form of economy is in place in that province rather than the economic views of its populace." we can't go far wrong.

BTW, what exactly do you mean with Reformed Socialism and Reformed Traditional?
 

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The CRC can easily be used to create a more hostile variant of the catholic economy. What if Catholic becomes Socialism, CRC could be a more hostile variant, Stalinism or something similar.
 
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Ah, you are correct! I have been outpoliticked. And about Paganism being governmental economic apathy, that's the best way to put it.

By reformed, I mean that some elements of free enterprise are still permitted--maybe I should just scrap that because of the complication, but I know there are a lot of "hybrid" economies out there.
 

unmerged(16514)

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Re: The MegaMethod

Originally posted by seraphim
Plutocracy vs. Aristocracy
Dictatorship vs. Democracy

Sorry to drag this thread up again, but in my opinion this slider would be much better as a kind of Proleteriat vs Oligarchy. i.e. Vietnam and China are at 1/2, Scandinavia is smack in the middle, USA, UK and Germany are at 6/7 and Yeltsinist Russia is a maximum 10. Kind of makes sense to me, since moving towards Proleteriat gives increased production and faster research (better working conditions and happier populace in general) whilst going Oligarchy means better Dip rating (capitalists more respected internationaly) and cheaper Cavalry (cavalry=tanks? More factories=cheaper tanks).
 

Sute]{h

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I agree with Mordheim on the serfdom slider...

However I like your idea of using religions as economies Seraphim, but how are you going to explain royal marriges and claiming of another throne?
 

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After a short sojourn in the land of not being able to post, Seraphim is back. the real seraphim.

Mordheim's class slider is a great one. I suppose Plutocracy vs. Aristocracy was always the Bourgeois vs. the Feudal Lords.

That it conflicts with the idea of economy is a big problem. You can not have a "free-market economy" built in the favor of the proletariat.

But is it the national proletariat, or international? Perhaps, if Hitler had meant what he said (like, relocating rather than killing the minorities :rolleyes: ), he would have been at 0, but very nationalist. And thus, a leader of the German workers--whereas most proletarian leaders would favor a world state. Like the Social-Democratic backing of WWI, I suppose that support for the national working class is not necessarily Communism. So it doesn't DIRECTLY conflict with the Economy/Religion pantheon.

And yet still, using the slider in this way definitely refers to the economy. Now, I don't adhere to some dogmatic separation of Economics and Politics into the Religions and Domestic Policy sections. Maybe it would be better to switch them around again, and let DP refer to the Economy and Religion to Politics. Or perhaps a mix is really what is needed.

Now that I think of it, socialist nations should receive an event whereby they receive a large sum of ducats, perhaps 500 with no inflation, for one slide towards the oligarchy/bureaucracy.

I am sorry that I have no definite solution. I plan to return tomorrow with one.


how are you going to explain royal marriges and claiming of another throne?

Royal marriages can, of course, follow the AoN model--"Vote of Neutrality". As for claiming another throne, I have no idea. I have forgotten how AoN did it :(. Perhaps, "Since we were such good friends, they invited us over for tea, and we happened to notice them shooting political prisoners. So let's kill them for democracy."

:(
 

unmerged(16514)

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Royal Marriage of could refer to 'Encouragement of Economic Interests Abroad' or somesuch. :) As for claiming a throne, hmmm...

Would it happen enough times to justify its inclusion in the mod? I have certainly never seen one in vanilla EU, even by an AI.