Another close look at how the AI builds up its worlds: 1.6 edition

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Everstill

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I've often said, the AI doesn't need to be optimal, but it does need to be at least rational. It clearly is not rational at this point. Oh well, maybe in 1.6.1... or 1.6.2 ... or 1.7.... or 1.8... or maybe Stellaris 2.

This multiple times.

The AI just need to NOT do stupid things, like waste resources in redevelopment. In fact, just respecting tile resources and building whatever is less in the income would give a good AI build order.

Can't be helped. Stellaris is a 4x after all and no 4x has ever had a good AI.

We don't need a good AI, just a not stupid one.
 

Carl_Bar

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Last game I played co-op with a friend of mine, I had almost all my sectors on energy focus due to the cost of keeping the fleet out of dry-dock for wars... And I ended up at like +80 food due to sectors. In fact I started building over most of my core world food tiles because it was just so stupid how much food I had.

Baffling to me is... when your empire is at +80 food, why the frick are the sector governors building orbital food modules onto the space ports? You only do that when you have a food shortage -- not when you have a massive surplus. Yeesh.

Right now I am playing a game with more core due to government and ascension perks and I am at 12 core systems, and about 14 worlds. No sectors yet. I am loving it.

Eventually when some worlds are built out, I will hand them off, but not before then.

Erm, what counts as a massive surplus depends on the number of pops you have, a good surplus is 0.4*pops, and a massive one would be >0.6*pops.


That aside the main issue appears to me to be the AI just being bad at deciding what it wants. I wonder, could the AI be expecting the growing pop to produce output, resulting in expected output code giving bad inputs that perpetuate a logic loop?



General rules the AI needs to follow IMO.

1. It probably needs a minimum excess energy and food and minerals (as a % of it's maximum maintenance capped at say 300 a month for EC and 500 for Minerals), and a desired Unity to worlds ratio.

2. It needs to build on tiles over redeveloping. It should only redevelop if it goes negetive on the 3 basics and there's no free pops.Or if all tiles are worked and have a pop on them.

3. Placing a building should set an AI flag on the affected tile. This prevent redevelopment for 10 years unless the AI is negetive and there are no free pops, or if condition 4 is met.

4. If a planet's base pre modifiers income of Minerals or Nexi exceeds 10 it should redevelop and existing mine or power plant into a processing plant or nexi.

5. If it needs to redevelop due to negatives it should redevelop resources in order of whichever is most over, (or nearest to if all below), the desired ratio and never redevelop any 3 basics if doing so would leave it negetive.

6. Whenever placing a desired building it should prioritise any tile with the maximum bonus that is free and has a pop on it.

7. It should never place building before a pop is grown and free. In effect only place buildings on tiles with pops.

8. Always run a pop reassignment check before redeveloping.

9. Never place space based stations if doing so would take it below ideal ratio.

10. Allow for different ideal ratios depending on fi standard or advanced start and number of years into game, (so standard starts can have very tight margins early on).

11. If all are above negetive, prioritise whichever is furthest from ideal ratio.

I can't think of anymore, but a basic setup like that, whilst not simple to code would do a lot to get the AI to mostly respect tile resources and not redevelop much.
 

zukodark

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The worst instance I have seen was when I was playing a robot ascended empire... My sectors somehow decided it was smart to increase my food income to +300 (from +50 when i first ascended). And no, they were not on balanced focus.
 

Weedes

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In the building files I noticed that the base building for just about every line of building has a weight on it for them to build it, but not the higher tier buildings in each line. Adding a weight to those tiers might solve this issue. Or not.

The idea being it weighs things to build on the tile based on a number of different things, one of them the weights in the buildings file, so it builds tier 1, but tier 2, 3, 4 etc have no weights but other tier 1 buildings from other lines have weights, so when it goes back to that tile and it wants to build something on it, it chooses another tier 1 building instead of the next tier 2 upgrade.

However I imagine it cannot be that simple... I mean, that is like a 5 minute fix. Certainly PDS or a modder greater than me would have figured this out a long time ago if this was the issue.

I will test this out at some point, I just need to get my private mod collection online with 1.6 before I can create any more.
 

nrader

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.... I've programmed, and it was pretty easy to resolve by adding a minor (+5% or so) weighting to a building if it is already present. This wouldn't be enough to overwhelm a building that legitimately has a higher build priority, but in the case of two buildings with near or nearly identical build weights it would give the constructed building just enough of an edge as to not be redeveloped.

Can you tell the specific value names or link the mod so i can figure out how to do something similar in my mod?
 

Ellestar

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I've often said, the AI doesn't need to be optimal, but it does need to be at least rational. It clearly is not rational at this point. Oh well, maybe in 1.6.1... or 1.6.2 ... or 1.7.... or 1.8... or maybe Stellaris 2.
When i was young and naive, i heard something along these lines. AI in Civilization I sucks, hopefully it will be better in Civilization II... or III... or IV...
And then i stopped believing that it will ever happen.

The truth is, AI in games doesn't pay for itself. It's much cheaper to let AI cheat or make some other mechanics that will compensate for AI stupidity. Given that we live in capitalist economy, game developers don't waste money on something that doesn't give them better profits, like a decent AI in a computer games.
 

orochi2k

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When i was young and naive, i heard something along these lines. AI in Civilization I sucks, hopefully it will be better in Civilization II... or III... or IV...
And then i stopped believing that it will ever happen.

The truth is, AI in games doesn't pay for itself. It's much cheaper to let AI cheat or make some other mechanics that will compensate for AI stupidity. Given that we live in capitalist economy, game developers don't waste money on something that doesn't give them better profits, like a decent AI in a computer games.

They outsourced AI to google, and google made Alpha GO. Now they are training it to play Starcraft. :p
 

Ellestar

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;)
Though as it was said. They have different team for different task, so the AI-team will be very busy with the issue but other teams can work on some content/graphics pack.
They can't possibly have AI team. AI team can do a lot of work in one year. Even one full-time AI programmer for Stellaris can fix that, and do much more than that. My guess is that they have a part-time Stellaris AI programmer at best, who works on other Paradox projects most of the time, and he only fixes things broken by expansions.
 
Last edited:

pryr

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Once i saw what sectors and AI are doing i always do these things:
*Set sectors settings to "No rebuilding", "Respect tile resourses"
*Add colonies in sector only after i manually place buildings around colony center and unity buildings.
*Massively rebuild any conquered worlds.
Now i constantly use core words just for early colony development and conquered worlds redevelopment. And "more core worlds" modifiers became really important for me.
 

UberWaffe

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Well there is no setting that specify it separetely for an empire AI. Or did i overlooked it?
I've not tried this myself, but you can probably manipulate the ai_weight entries on buildings in the building files.
Code:
ai_weight = {
       weight = 10  
   }
Change it to be something like:
Code:
ai_weight = {
    factor = 10
    modifier = {
        factor = 0.95
        tile = {
            has_building = yes
        }      
    }
}
I think that will make it 5% less desirable to place that building on a tile that already has one.
Again, untested.

Also, has to be done for each building.
A fix on the AI engine would be much better place for it. But mods cannot touch that.
 

OdinTGE

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They can't possibly have AI team. AI team can do a lot of work in one year. Even one full-time AI programmer for Stellaris can fix that, and do much more than that. My guess is that they have a part-time Stellaris AI programmer at best, who works on other Paradox projects most of the time, and he only fixes things broken by expansions.

Yeah, people on the forums always talk about "The AI team" and I think they're vastly overestimating the staff size at PDS. Then they're also forgetting that PDS makes more than just Stellaris.

And "more core worlds" modifiers became really important for me.

Yeah, there's only two choices. Play a super tiny/tall empire or take every core-worlds boost possible (except pacifist of course. dirty hippies) so you can actually expand at a somewhat decent pace. You absolutely cannot go expand to a 4th or 5th world with no core system bonuses and let the sector AI handle your new worlds. That's just asking to be sad, angry, and sad again.
 

Stoßtrupp Gold

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Once i saw what sectors and AI are doing i always do these things:
*Set sectors settings to "No rebuilding", "Respect tile resourses"
*Add colonies in sector only after i manually place buildings around colony center and unity buildings.
*Massively rebuild any conquered worlds.
Now i constantly use core words just for early colony development and conquered worlds redevelopment. And "more core worlds" modifiers became really important for me.
That´s what i do since 1.0, just with the unlimited core world/systems mod.