Another appeal to flesh out East Africa

[BritNavFan]

The scramble happens because they are ahistorically weak, but nations who devoted resources to conquest did succeed like Portugal in Zenj.

To make Africa historical you have to include the effects of disease as someone mentioned, but you also need to fix the fact that the scale is off. I estimate there should be 4x as many provinces in Africa as there are (mostly very poor). That's why, for example, it's easy to colonize the whole of modern South Africa in EU, while historically it was most of the way through the Victoria period before that colonization process encompassed South Africa's modern borders.

As a bonus, 4x as many provinces would make the native kingdoms much more interesting to play. West Africa should look like the HRE.

On another note, Paradox mentioned somewhere that they wanted to include trade posts in vanilla EU IV but decided they didn't have time. I think it's likely that there will be a DLC both adding trade posts and improving Africa.

(Actually, there should be about 4x as many provinces throughout the world outside Europe and Japan, but that's another thread.)

 

[Sun_Wu]

To make Africa historical you have to include the effects of disease as someone mentioned, but you also need to fix the fact that the scale is off. I estimate there should be 4x as many provinces in Africa as there are (mostly very poor). That's why, for example, it's easy to colonize the whole of modern South Africa in EU, while historically it was most of the way through the Victoria period before that colonization process encompassed South Africa's modern borders.

As a bonus, 4x as many provinces would make the native kingdoms much more interesting to play. West Africa should look like the HRE.

On another note, Paradox mentioned somewhere that they wanted to include trade posts in vanilla EU IV but decided they didn't have time. I think it's likely that there will be a DLC both adding trade posts and improving Africa.

(Actually, there should be about 4x as many provinces throughout the world outside Europe and Japan, but that's another thread.)

Subsaharan Africa does seem like very fruitful ground for a DLC, so terrible and hardly anyone ever plays there anyway.

 

[AndreasPhokas]

Id love to play Ethiopia but their atrocious tech group just ruins the fun. Supposedly there was a screenshot where the tech groups don't lose monarch points anymore(IE no more -1 per month if you're indian). If those remove that penalty then more should play outside of Europe.

 

[Mad King James]

Id love to play Ethiopia but their atrocious tech group just ruins the fun. Supposedly there was a screenshot where the tech groups don't lose monarch points anymore(IE no more -1 per month if you're indian). If those remove that penalty then more should play outside of Europe.

I agree

 

[VolitionNewlove]

I think it should also be easier for Pagan Subsaharan states to convert to Christianity or Islam. There are a couple of events, however, they are rare and specific. Perhaps they should be able to Offer Conversion, especially during Holy Wars. Seems currently, the only reliable way to leave the religion is to collapse your nation religious rebels, which is one of the most gamey tactics one can do. In situations like these, the best way to alter them is to offer a more realistic, but still costly, alternative.

Perhaps a "Royal Visit," action that can be performed by monarchies on nations with positive relations, though costing x amount of money. This would give a relationship bonus, though having a slight chance of converting your state religion.

 

[Closet Skeleton]

Where do the 18th-century British conquests in India fit into this timeline? I'd say the great acceleration in European military power started a lot earlier than the adoption of the machine gun. Still, the EU games definitely get it wrong in letting Europeans go to town in Asia in the 16th century.

Britain's armies weren't more advanced than the Indian armies they defeated in the 1780s and 90s. In some ways Britain actually had the advantage decades earlier when they were only establishing bases rather than large conquests, but by the time Britain fully conquered India they were using Indian troops and the Indian rulers had their troops trained to similar standards and possessed similar equipment because no ruler in India was stupid enough to keep their outdated armies when they could just pay European advisers. Britain lost battles and drew wars. Tippu Sultan even had his famous rockets that were ahead of anything in Europe at the time.

It shows a massive bias that whenever Europeans fight each other the question of technological advancement is usually ignored in favour of terrain, morale, generals and tactics but the moment Europeans fight anyone else it suddenly becomes all about technology.

The British conquest of India was a complicated hegemonic arrangement that took centuries to form. Nobody just waltzed in with super tech.

The British were the first to industrialize, the Industrial Revolution got going in England by the late 1700s. It actually dovetails pretty well:

The industrialisation in Britain was driven by imported Indian Cotton, the conquest of India and the contemporary Industrial Revolution were in a feedback loop rather than simple cause and effect.

 

[grisamentum]

The biggest issue with east Africa (though there are many things that could use improvement) is the ridiculously backward tech. The merchant princes of the Swahili kingdoms can't even build ships! Adal doesn't know where Mecca is! Trying to shoehorn these nations into the same tech group as Kongo doesn't really make sense.

The fact that any Muslim country doesn't know where Mecca is might be one of the stupidest things in EU4 right now. Like Mali doesn't know where Mecca is? How did the Musa I carry out a famous pilgrimage ~100 years before game-start if Mali doesn't know where Mecca is?

It's also particularly stupid in light of CK2's decision not to use TI at all. You can play a Malinese ruler for the entire CK2 time period, go on hajj to Mecca, trade with North Africa... and then you load up EU4 and you have no clue where anything is anymore. Pretty sad game design.

 

[VolitionNewlove]

The fact that any Muslim country doesn't know where Mecca is might be one of the stupidest things in EU4 right now. Like Mali doesn't know where Mecca is? How did the Musa I carry out a famous pilgrimage ~100 years before game-start if Mali doesn't know where Mecca is?

It's also particularly stupid in light of CK2's decision not to use TI at all. You can play a Malinese ruler for the entire CK2 time period, go on hajj to Mecca, trade with North Africa... and then you load up EU4 and you have no clue where anything is anymore. Pretty sad game design.

There are *huge* problems with how the known provinces maps currently work, at the moment. Everything is given large groups, which creates absurd situations on which nations they do know over which they don't. The Malay and Sulawesi nations are largely clueless about even Sunda, I believe, and yet both seem to know the latest affairs in Japan and Mongolia. Some Indochinese nations can't even see the sea they're adjacent to. Surely those nations don't believe they built those ports and fishing villages inland?

 

[unmerged(804580)]

I'd love to see the in-game "Sub-saharran" areas more flesed out like this. And it's a detailed proposal that could be worked on by a modder, if not the devs right away. Kudos for the OP.

Swahili city-states need something more fleshed out, definitely. They are a major civilization and hopefully they're in the Muslim group at least, or an East African tech group by itself. ...I don't know if it's a good idea to make them independent city states, though, since according to the OP's proposal now Swahili will get a border to the rest of the Muslim world and making a bunch of OPMs and TPMs might cause Yemen or anyone who controls the Arabian peninsula to simply roll them over.

Added: the extent of known maps are kind of weird too, though I kind of understand their decision to base it on the groups rather than individual cases since making it based on individual basis will make it.. reaally a lot of work. My personal moment of WTF was that Bali didn't know the eastern Java, which is the way they came to Bali when the Majapahit empire collapsed.

 

[Sun_Wu]

There are *huge* problems with how the known provinces maps currently work, at the moment. Everything is given large groups, which creates absurd situations on which nations they do know over which they don't. The Malay and Sulawesi nations are largely clueless about even Sunda, I believe, and yet both seem to know the latest affairs in Japan and Mongolia. Some Indochinese nations can't even see the sea they're adjacent to. Surely those nations don't believe they built those ports and fishing villages inland?

While individual maps is too difficult it is perfectly reasonable to break out Indonesia, maybe Indochina in the same group, as it's own tech group.


For the people who want a better subsaharan Africa, load up MEIOU & Taxes, we have the countries much improved (we would definitely love the help of someone who is knowledgeable in that area).

I'd love to see the in-game "Sub-saharran" areas more flesed out like this. And it's a detailed proposal that could be worked on by a modder, if not the devs right away. Kudos for the OP.

Swahili city-states need something more fleshed out, definitely. They are a major civilization and hopefully they're in the Muslim group at least, or an East African tech group by itself. ...I don't know if it's a good idea to make them independent city states, though, since according to the OP's proposal now Swahili will get a border to the rest of the Muslim world and making a bunch of OPMs and TPMs might cause Yemen or anyone who controls the Arabian peninsula to simply roll them over.

Added: the extent of known maps are kind of weird too, though I kind of understand their decision to base it on the groups rather than individual cases since making it based on individual basis will make it.. reaally a lot of work. My personal moment of WTF was that Bali didn't know the eastern Java, which is the way they came to Bali when the Majapahit empire collapsed.

I think you'd like M&T's Swahili.

 

[unmerged(804580)]

While individual maps is too difficult it is perfectly reasonable to break out Indonesia, maybe Indochina in the same group, as it's own tech group.


For the people who want a better subsaharan Africa, load up MEIOU & Taxes, we have the countries much improved (we would definitely love the help of someone who is knowledgeable in that area).



I think you'd like M&T's Swahili.

I would, if I didn't have performance issues with my laptop... haha. I haven't tried the newer versions, though, so maybe I should give it another try.

 

[Sun_Wu]

I would, if I didn't have performance issues with my laptop... haha. I haven't tried the newer versions, though, so maybe I should give it another try.

Performance has massively increased over earlier version (more than 3x as fast, also stuttering issue is gone).

 

[grisamentum]

While individual maps is too difficult it is perfectly reasonable to break out Indonesia, maybe Indochina in the same group, as it's own tech group.


For the people who want a better subsaharan Africa, load up MEIOU & Taxes, we have the countries much improved (we would definitely love the help of someone who is knowledgeable in that area).



I think you'd like M&T's Swahili.

Stop shilling your goddamn mod. We want the base game to be correct. You can mod whatever you'd like to your hearts content but hardly anyone uses mods at all. Not to mention that you can't use mods in ironman.

 

[Sun_Wu]

Stop shilling your goddamn mod. We want the base game to be correct. You can mod whatever you'd like to your hearts content but hardly anyone uses mods at all.

Is it wrong to suggest a mod that does what they want far better than vanilla? And also a mod that would take their feedback into account?

He can either have a better product now or wait, hope and pray for something that is unlikely to happen anytime soon and may never happen.

 

[grisamentum]

Is it wrong to suggest a mod that does what they want far better than vanilla? And also a mod that would take their feedback into account?

He can either have a better product now or wait, hope and pray for something that is unlikely to happen anytime soon and may never happen.

If he wants to play it in Ironman, no, he can't have a better product now.

It's also not a matter of having a mod that plays the game the way he wants. It's about what's the correct way to represent an area. The point is that the developers have done it incompletely or incorrectly and thus we should get them to correct their error. If you play a mod it doesn't fix the fact that the vanilla game is still wrong.

 

[Zander]

Stop shilling your goddamn mod. We want the base game to be correct.

There's no call for that kind of language. Yes, we want the base game to be improved. But there's nothing wrong with suggesting a mod if it handles the region better; it's not like the thread has been spammed with mod suggestions.

 

[Seelmeister]

Agree with the comment above, let's keep the language calm.

If anyone has concerns about a thread being derailed then please approach the moderation team

 

[Hive]

I agree with MKJ, it would be nice to see Africa as a whole improved. I have added 14 new East and West African states to my own mod and could easily think of more, if ressources was no issue. I would personally much rather have seen Paradox do that for their first DLC instead of adding 50 new 1-province minor North American natives, but eh.... maybe next time.

 

[Sun_Wu]

If he wants to play it in Ironman, no, he can't have a better product now.

It's also not a matter of having a mod that plays the game the way he wants. It's about what's the correct way to represent an area. The point is that the developers have done it incompletely or incorrectly and thus we should get them to correct their error. If you play a mod it doesn't fix the fact that the vanilla game is still wrong.

I also cannot eat a cake and have it too, what is your point?

The Paradox team doesn't have the time or the manpower to do it until after the current DLC is released, even then they probably have other ones in the pipeline ahead of it, it might be the in the next major DLC, a DLC two years from now, or perhaps not even in EU4.

There's no call for that kind of language. Yes, we want the base game to be improved. But there's nothing wrong with suggesting a mod if it handles the region better; it's not like the thread has been spammed with mod suggestions.

I was as much requesting the OP look at it and tell us how we could improve it as to get him to play the mod. We don't have anyone on our team knowledgeable about that region and I thought he might want to help other players experience a more historical region.

I agree with MKJ, it would be nice to see Africa as a whole improved. I have added 14 new East and West African states to my own mod and could easily think of more, if ressources was no issue. I would personally much rather have seen Paradox do that for their first DLC instead of adding 50 new 1-province minor North American natives, but eh.... maybe next time.

 

[Gebhard Blucher]

Ethiopia has always been one of my favorites since EU2 and I've been playing the country recently in EUIV.

I understand the desire to see more countries and, generally, more attention given to areas like East Africa. However I have to say that the simplified political landscape over there and Ethiopia's relative seclusion is one of its few saving graces. It's difficult enough with the atrocious tech group and the constant threat of getting curb stomped by the Mamluks and/or Arabian minors. I wonder if I'd have a chance at a meaningful game at all if I had to spend even more time securing a basic position with a bunch of bickering states taking up valuable growing space.