Annoying problems, bugs and exploits

[Biga]

hello dear Paradox,

I would like list a few points which makes your great game annoying and very unrealistic:

- TP retreat bug: first I met it in HOI2 but it did not disappear in Armageddon. I can't understand why you don't find this bug, the units retreating to the place of amb. attack after defeat. Please fix it and let them retreat to their ships.

- unrealistic naval engine: which enables build fleets for example with 300 DD units which are laughing on the penalty and destroys anything (CV fleets too). How can these DDs go near to CVs in hours?

- Why no province army limit? I don't think it is an huge task to limit armies. Unrealistic and annoying to fight against 150 divisions in a mountain or city province.

- very weak Soviet Union. A good german player almost every time can beat SU. Fewer IC than Germany? Unrealistic..

etc...

I love this game but I will make a big pause...

 

[HoldSteady]

- very weak Soviet Union. A good german player almost every time can beat SU. Fewer IC than Germany? Unrealistic..

Allthough I agree that the game could be better, a tip for making things harder on Germany fighting the USSR:
- Play VH
- Do not build 2-3 runs of factories. Keep it at 1-1.5 runs max.
- Build a navy as Germany did IRL, so build the Tirpiz and the Bismarck. Hell, even throw in the Grav Zeppelin.
- Use historical timeframe to invade the USSR.
- Find yourself a few other restrictions

But again, I agree that it shouldnt be necessary to make things harder on yourself when choosing VH. AT VH u should be able to choose any path and still have a hard time winning the clash of clashes.

 

[Biga]

I played with HOI2DD in the last half year only in MP so I can't tell to the german player how he should play

 

[Rizel]

I played with HOI2DD in the last half year only in MP so I can't tell to the german player how he should play

A human USSR should actually demolish a human Germany. I advise if one is playing Germany someone else should be playing USSR. (to balance it out.)

 

[unmerged(7806)]

300 DD's ? now that is something id like to see.. imagine 300 destroyers attacking a 15 stack BB or CV fleet. :rofl:

TRuth be told, thats ALOT of IC dedicated to a naval force im reluctant to give much chance
of killing above mentioned opposing fleets. :wacko: Have you ever seen this? did the other
guy have any land units at all?

ps: put a crappy commander to command the CV fleet and an excelent commander to command the DD fleet, and watch them go at it at teeth length


nappy

 

[Biga]

Try it. USA for example can build a large scale destroyer fleet. Even not need 300, 80-100 are enough. This fleet kills the best fleet of Japan with 15 CV's (no rain, good admiral).
A lot of DD will be also killed but DD is cheap and has short build time.
Of course I saw it and many people use this explot in MP games to win.

I'm sad to see this because that way HOI will be an RTS where one win who can build the largest cheapest peasant army.

 

[Rizel]

Try it. USA for example can build a large scale destroyer fleet. Even not need 300, 80-100 are enough. This fleet kills the best fleet of Japan with 15 CV's (no rain, good admiral).
A lot of DD will be also killed but DD is cheap and has short build time.
Of course I saw it and many people use this explot in MP games to win.

I'm sad to see this because that way HOI will be an RTS where one win who can build the largest cheapest peasant army.

I can't see how it is possible for a dd fleet to close in to a CV fleet, unless they got vastly superior doctrines and admiral. Nevertheless, i will try it in a game. i will report what i find, if it is true..Then it is surely a gamebreaking exploit.

 

[theokrat]

Very weak Soviet Union? I dont think so. Weak Soviet Ai, yes, but if you try human vs human the Soviets will pwn you.

 

[Biga]

Do you ever play multiplayer?
Germany build factories 2 years long, kills Poland and France fast in 1939.
In most cases human player makes Barbarossa in 1940.
Japan beatens China quickly in 1938 and puppet it.

Ca 300-350 Soviet divisions with very weak GDE faces with 300 german divisions (40-50 ARM) with excellent ORG, almost 100-150 divisions of Italy, Hungary and Romania, and 150 chinese/japan divisions from east.

SU has no chance.

Our MP campaigns has 80% axis victory with experienced players.

Germany can built a very large industry (far larger than SU), has many manpower with his excellent minister (larger than SU), store a lot of oil and rare from 36.

 

[Biga]

DD fleet problem:

theoretically destroyers need at least 15-20 hours to reach fire position to CVs. theoretically it is enough time for the carrier groups to hunt down destroyers. but the naval engine of HOI2 gives 2 hours (!) to reach the CVs and kill them. the only solution that the player who have the CV fleet waits and retreats, and repeats the attack-retreat step. if he does not retreat, the DDs will encounter his CVs and all lost. unfortunately the stack penalty is too low and the DDs fight at 20% which is enough if their number is enough high.

Edit:
the retreat-reattack trick of CV fleet can't be used too many times because the screening units slowly killed by the huge DD fleet and the next targets are the CVs.

 

[unmerged(50070)]

Very weak Soviet Union? I dont think so. Weak Soviet Ai, yes, but if you try human vs human the Soviets will pwn you.

Unfortunately GER (Axis) beat SU 8-9 times from 10 game in multi...

But this can be moddable. (giving more IC, manpower etc. to SU)

The DD-fleet problem is larger, because the the naval battle mechanism is hard coded.
Maybe increasing DD's price, decreasing DD's Sea Attack + Defense or increasing Capital ships Sea Attack/Defence stats would solve the problem.
The DDs still can close the range against BB or CV but then the massing DDs tactic don't worthwhile in IC.

 

[mbb]

DD fleet problem:

theoretically destroyers need at least 15-20 hours to reach fire position to CVs. theoretically it is enough time for the carrier groups to hunt down destroyers. but the naval engine of HOI2 gives 2 hours (!) to reach the CVs and kill them. the only solution that the player who have the CV fleet waits and retreats, and repeats the attack-retreat step. if he does not retreat, the DDs will encounter his CVs and all lost. unfortunately the stack penalty is too low and the DDs fight at 20% which is enough if their number is enough high.

Edit:
the retreat-reattack trick of CV fleet can't be used too many times because the screening units slowly killed by the huge DD fleet and the next targets are the CVs.

Well, I would agree with you, but if in game you have 80 DD in a fleet, that is approximately (80 * 5) 400 individual ships in RL. Would a 15 carriers be able to defend against such a force in RL? Or would they be encircled, trapped and mobbed?

Now if you are talking about the capability of actually producing and massing all those DD I would agree. Limiting the ship building capacity of a nation base on the number of ports is something that has been discussed before for HOI 3.

 

[theokrat]

Unfortunately GER (Axis) beat SU 8-9 times from 10 game in multi...

I seem to play with the wrong people... On the other hand the houserule usually is a 41 attack. But we took on that to avoid an early Soviet attack... Oh well.

 

[Biga]

Well, I would agree with you, but if in game you have 80 DD in a fleet, that is approximately (80 * 5) 400 individual ships in RL. Would a 15 carriers be able to defend against such a force in RL? Or would they be encircled, trapped and mobbed?

Now if you are talking about the capability of actually producing and massing all those DD I would agree. Limiting the ship building capacity of a nation base on the number of ports is something that has been discussed before for HOI 3.

It was a debate between us about what you wrote, how would be it happens in the reality. In other words why did not build UK or USA such a force? And we must count that the recon in that time was not so efficient than today. If this huge DD fleet can be spotted over 100-150 km I suppose the aircrafts of 15 CVs can deal the case. In addition a DD fleet without aircrafts has a very limited information about the enemy over 100km range. Right, this solution could be "industrially" efficient (ship line assembly...) but it is a logistical nightmare, to command and use effectively up to 400 ships. It is surely not a II WW scenario what we expect.

So I think handling 400 ships is impossible so it is an exploit. Unfortunately the penalty has a low limit in HOI2, so it does not matter we speak about 100 or 400 ships.

 

[unmerged(50070)]

I seem to play with the wrong people... On the other hand the houserule usually is a 41 attack. But we took on that to avoid an early Soviet attack... Oh well.

Doesn't matter who play with SU if all Axis attack from all direction: GER, ITA, HUN, ROM, JAP, CHI etc. SU have a 10000-15000km front, and can not hold.
Mainly in 40.

OK, where I play there is no rule that forbid the Barbarossa in 40. But I saw some games, where Barbarossa started in 41 and SU still collapsed...

The above mentioned statistic true not only in my mp series but generally.
If you see the HOI mp community, there is much more Axis victory then Allied.

http://xsorbit25.com/users5/hoiplayers/index.php

 

[unmerged(50070)]

I seem to play with the wrong people... On the other hand the houserule usually is a 41 attack. But we took on that to avoid an early Soviet attack... Oh well.

But if this is a 1 vs. 1 game (SU vs. GER) and Barbarossa starting in 41 than I agree: a good SU player can beat GER.

 

[theokrat]

Yeah ususally wihtout Japan, true

 

[unmerged(76730)]

- very weak Soviet Union. A good german player almost every time can beat SU. Fewer IC than Germany? Unrealistic..

Good Soviet player SHOULD NOT lose a single [Soviet native] province to [AI] Germans in 1941 and SHOULD be in Berlin by the end of 1942 - mid 1943.

 

[Biga]

Good Soviet player SHOULD NOT lose a single [Soviet native] province to [AI] Germans in 1941 and SHOULD be in Berlin by the end of 1942 - mid 1943.

I speak about human german player.

In time there are no fun to play against AI.

 

[Biga]

I would like to add the "air problems":

Please set an aircraft limit for airports! The airport size should effect to the number of stacks too, not only the regain values. It is bit unrealistic that the whole air force of a country can rebase to one airport...

In Vanilla, with 2-3 years of industrialisation, a grand power can have unrealistical big air power, for example 60-70-80 fighters! In multiplayer, it can last minutes (pause) while the player make take off his planes for air superiority with the current 4 stack limit!