Announcing Clio : A new map for Victoria : Revolutions

[OHgamer]

Great Lakes had Atlantic acsess!

Erie Canal anyone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erie_canal

but for what use in game? Warships certainly did not use the Erie Canal to travel from the lakes to the ocean, I don't think clipper convoys would even qualify (having grown up near the Erie Canal, it's not designed for the kinds of purposes that ships are used in game).

 

[unmerged(35984)]

Fair 'nuff....

....but it was there....

....and....

....it cost a lot to build...

....and it was economicaly important!!!

 

[trevorscott]

But the Erie Canal was finished in 1825... and just a few years down the road, as it were, was replaced by railroads.

If you want sea access to the Great Lakes, then the St Lawrence is the answer as its use dates from the same time and its draft was marginally better (4 ft compared to 10 ft).

Still doesn't though escape the computer's compunction to place the lion's share of their navies in pointless lakes.

 

[Sitenl]

I believe that Brazil and Paraguay should be revised

Due to the provinces, the revolts of the beginning just happen were they didn't (the Sabinada expanding to Vitória da Conquista? This is madness ¬¬) and the borders are just... wrong.

 

[OHgamer]

I believe that Brazil and Paraguay should be revised

Due to the provinces, the revolts of the beginning just happen were they didn't (the Sabinada expanding to Vitória da Conquista? This is madness ¬¬) and the borders are just... wrong.

if you have suggestions for new province boundaries, we are using actual national maps for the basis of the nations, so if you can make a map with suggestions of province locations, that would be great. We intend to keep the number of provinces for Brazil and Paraguay the same.

 

[el Presidente]

Poland

starting work on Europe, and will be adding one province to Poland/West Prussia to better reflect the political splits post-WWI.

I took this part of Europe divided on 52 provinces:

And I prepared a project of map divided on 53 provinces because of OHgamer quote above. I added 1 province to West Prussia and another one to East Prussia, but I divided Duchy of Poznan only on 2 provinces. In major case I based on original administration borders from XIX century and post-WWI period. I hope you will enjoy it.

Galizien:
1 Stanislawow
2 Tarnopol
3 Stryj
4 Brody
5 Lwow
6 Przemysl
7 Rzeszow
8 Tarnow
9 Nowy Sacz
10 Krakow
Schlesien:
11 Cieszyn
12 Kattowitz
13 Oppeln
14 Breslau
Posen:
15 Poznan
16 Bydgoszcz
Westpreussen:
17 Deutsch Krone
18 Starogard
19 Torun
20 Puck
21 Danzig
Ostpreussen:
22 Elbing
23 Allenstein
24 Konigsberg
25 Gumbinen
26 Memel
Congress Poland:
27 Kielce
28 Radom
29 Lodz
30 Kalisz
31 Skierniewice
32 Lublin
33 Siedlce
34 Warszawa
35 Plock
36 Lomza
Lithuania:
37 Suwalki
38 Marijampole
39 Siauliai
40 Panevezys
41 Kaunas
42 Wilno
to some other states, which ones?
43 Bialystok
44 Grodno
45 Lida
46 Glebokie
47 Molodeczno
48 Nowogrodek
49 Brzesc
50 Pinsk
51 Kowel
52 Luck
53 Rowne
I give you original map for your own ideas:

 

[OHgamer]

El Presidente,

some interesting ideas. Xie will have this section of the map based on our original ideas ready for comment in the near future, I'd appreciate comment on what we came up with.

Poland area is of course an issue because you have all the border changes, and one goal with Clio is that the province borders would reflect as accurately as possible both the post-1919 borders (because they are now actively needed in game) and, if possible, contemporary borders (for other modders who might want to use the map for modern-day purposes).

So on your map for ex, East Prussia would not work for those who might want to use the map for a modern-day scenario, since it isn't partitioned in as in the current map of Poland. Similarly the border for modern Eastern Poland does not seem quite right to me (though it's hard to tell some of the province borders in that color you used), and these are things that I took into consideration when I did the province maps for the area.

Like I said, I think your ideas are good, and look forward to your comments once Xie has the Europe map ready for comment, and we can tweak things from there.

 

[el Presidente]

Modern Eastern Poland borders... We must the border line between #5 and #6 make more straight, like also eastern border of #43. It's easy, I think so.

But what about Eastern Prussia? If we don't want add any province we can convert Konigsberg (#24) into province looking like Kaliningrad Oblast.

In this case we must draw border between #23 and #25. Or erase one of them and make #22 bigger by the way. This solution give us one province to use somewhere in other part of map.

And I've got an idea where... Prowince #11, Cieszyn (czech Tesin) was historically divided in two halfs between Czechoslovakia and Poland after WWI and this border is actual today.
+ historically
- two so little provinces? This is a little bit crazy idea, I know.
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafika:Slask_cieszynski.png
Say something what you think.

 

[OHgamer]

Modern Eastern Poland borders... We must the border line between #5 and #6 make more straight, like also eastern border of #43. It's easy, I think so.

But what about Eastern Prussia? If we don't want add any province we can convert Konigsberg (#24) into province looking like Kaliningrad Oblast.

In this case we must draw border between #23 and #25. Or erase one of them and make #22 bigger by the way. This solution give us one province to use somewhere in other part of map.

And I've got an idea where... Prowince #11, Cieszyn (czech Tesin) was historically divided in two halfs between Czechoslovakia and Poland after WWI and this border is actual today.
+ historically
- two so little provinces? This is a little bit crazy idea, I know.
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafika:Slask_cieszynski.png
Say something what you think.

except that you then make Konigsburg province stretch from the Russian border to the sea - bad for the military structure (remember the Germans halted the Russians at Tannenburg & Masurian Lakes in 1914, Russians never reached Konigsburg) So province 24 needs to be split into a coastal (konigsburg) and inland (Gumbinnen) province.

Which is what I've done for the map.

As for Tesin/Cieszyn, Paradox has this pretty well modelled with the existence of 2 provinces - Cieszyn and Zator, and again that is approx what I've done for the map.

Again I guess just wait and see what we post first then we can move on to suggestions.

 

[Tempelridderen]

Just a thought: Shouldn't the Caribbean get some more provinces? There are tons of islands there not covered at all. I know that there isn't enough to cover them all, but surely some could be added. And also purely cosmetically, more islands should be "painted" on the map . The same goes for the Indonesian islands. Actually, the Sulawesi/Celebes island has a lot of provinces that could be recycled to make new islands. . And also, divide Timor into two provinces, to reflect the Dutch and the Portuguese part, as well as modern day East Timor.

P.S: The extra tags from removing provinces of Celebes, should rather be used for the Phillippines islands... o

Also, Rugen should be an island in the baltic, close to Germany. Don't think you need a new tag for it though.

 

[el Presidente]

You mean something like this, OHgamer?

In my opinion it's better to forget about my idea of two provinces of Cieszyn than make a province of Zator. The second one in my opinion is so artificial... But now this is past, because the province we talked about is back in East Prussia, as I show above.

 

[OHgamer]

You mean something like this, OHgamer?

In my opinion it's better to forget about my idea of two provinces of Cieszyn than make a province of Zator. The second one in my opinion is so artificial... But now this is past, because the province we talked about is back in East Prussia, as I show above.

yeah that is basically how I have East Prussia set up, more or less

Paradox already includes Cieszyn and Zator, so I've kept them, since it is a simple way to deal with the issue. Zator fits nicely into Poland, Cieszyn fits nicely into Czech Republic, you can have Cieszyn be a Polish core in Czechoslovakia post 1919, which will make the AIs not cooperate much, very much like how politics was in the 20s and 30s.

 

[OHgamer]

Just a thought: Shouldn't the Caribbean get some more provinces? There are tons of islands there not covered at all. I know that there isn't enough to cover them all, but surely some could be added. And also purely cosmetically, more islands should be "painted" on the map . The same goes for the Indonesian islands. Actually, the Sulawesi/Celebes island has a lot of provinces that could be recycled to make new islands. . And also, divide Timor into two provinces, to reflect the Dutch and the Portuguese part, as well as modern day East Timor.

P.S: The extra tags from removing provinces of Celebes, should rather be used for the Phillippines islands... o

there is a limit on the caribbean because the islands are so close together - will not be able to get them all in, but hope to split them up a bit more.

timor is already scheduled to be split - see post on P 1 about Islands to be included

Already have earmarked 4 extra provinces for the Philippines to better reflect the islands there.

As for the rest of Indonesia, still developing ideas. Would like at minimum to add Madura and Nias in, but beyond that still working out ideas.

 

[Tempelridderen]

there is a limit on the caribbean because the islands are so close together - will not be able to get them all in, but hope to split them up a bit more.

timor is already scheduled to be split - see post on P 1 about Islands to be included

Already have earmarked 4 extra provinces for the Philippines to better reflect the islands there.

As for the rest of Indonesia, still developing ideas. Would like at minimum to add Madura and Nias in, but beyond that still working out ideas.

Hi! Thanks for your fast reply. I beleive I should just shut up and be quiet, it seems you have it all covered :rofl: . Oh well.. one other thing: The Sado Island of Japan, should it be included? Maybe too small....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sado_Island

 

[el Presidente]

Zator is such a little town a few kilometres near Cracow... It was a Paradox' big mistake making this province, especially when gave it into Silesia. The bigger and closer to Czechia town is Bielsko, which is on the historical Silesia-Galicia border. So that I made Cieszyn province a little smaller, and I created a province Bielsko, now with number #8 in place of Tarnow.

This is a new map of Galicia, with reworked today's polish-ukrainian border.

 

[Weijun]

China Update

Just wanted to give a progress report from the China team.

As a first step, I am putting together a spreadsheet of the Qing prefectures, their capital cities, the "provinces" in Victoria to which they correspond, and the treaty ports (about 25% complete). We have good historical maps to work with, but there is a little bit of homework to do, as Victoria often uses modern names, and there is usually 2-3 prefectures to a "province."

When the documentation is complete, we will have a committee meeting to decide how prefectures will be merged, and whether to go with the prefecture, city, or modern name.

In the meanwhile, Xiechengnuo is drawing the historical coastline and province ("states" in Victoria) boundaries, which are fairly different from the modern map.

We really only seem to have time for Clio on the weekends, but are continuing to make progress.

Since we only get 10 extra "provinces," none of us are thrilled about apportioning this scarce resource to administratively non-distinct treaty ports, but I acknowledge that may be necessary for gameplay. There is an obvious need for Hong Kong and Macau to be separate, but distinct treaty ports only make sense if China actually has to cede the "provinces." Any feedback would be welcome.

 

[OHgamer]

Just wanted to give a progress report from the China team.

As a first step, I am putting together a spreadsheet of the Qing prefectures, their capital cities, the "provinces" in Victoria to which they correspond, and the treaty ports (about 25% complete). We have good historical maps to work with, but there is a little bit of homework to do, as Victoria often uses modern names, and there is usually 2-3 prefectures to a "province."

When the documentation is complete, we will have a committee meeting to decide how prefectures will be merged, and whether to go with the prefecture, city, or modern name.

In the meanwhile, Xiechengnuo is drawing the historical coastline and province ("states" in Victoria) boundaries, which are fairly different from the modern map.

We really only seem to have time for Clio on the weekends, but are continuing to make progress.

Since we only get 10 extra "provinces," none of us are thrilled about apportioning this scarce resource to administratively non-distinct treaty ports, but I acknowledge that may be necessary for gameplay. There is an obvious need for Hong Kong and Macau to be separate, but distinct treaty ports only make sense if China actually has to cede the "provinces." Any feedback would be welcome.

No problem on the treaty ports - they really are too small to make provinces with. As long as we have Hong Kong and Macao the rest I'll not panic about too much.

 

[Earl Uhtred]

As a further very minor adjustment to the north of England, Nottingham should probably be renamed Sheffield.

 

[G-Klav]

No problem on the treaty ports - they really are too small to make provinces with. As long as we have Hong Kong and Macao the rest I'll not panic about too much.

I'd like it if German Kiautschou and Japanese Port Arthur would be represented in some way too.

 

[L'Afrique]

I would second that. Especially Port Arthur, as it was an important bit of land for the Russo-Japanese War, no?