Announcement: C.O.R.E. for Hearts of Iron 2

[unmerged(18202)]

I didn't mean to single you out. Just happened to be the last post I was repsonding to. And I just had a feeling that we were heading awful close to that "line in the sand" concerning board rules, and not anything specific that had been posted (as yet). Just trying to avoid any "Imperial entanglements" here.

Not a problem. I think you know I'm enough on board that I wouldn't take us toward an uncrossable line, but I can see where that needs to be reinforced with others from time to time.

I actually do agree with you about this to a great extent. I should probaly try and find the original discussion for CORE1 about this. The only thing is, I don't remember where we had it. I can't recall if it was here on the PI boards, or on the wiki. Probably on the wiki. Check in either the 0.6 or 0.7 project stuff, as I think it was about that time it came up for serious discussion. I'll look later...

The discussion came before my time, I reckon. But even if it's been had, this is a new game. I remember some issues on the wiki that I felt were distinctly decided for reasons other than gameplay--specifically, vocal nationalism--and honestly, it was a partial reason I began to feel I really couldn't help the project as much as I otherwise might have.

But, as I recall, the issue wasn't so much to include him, but how to remove him. I think it was CopperNicus who pointed out that we couldn't really remove him as he should be, with out opening up the whole Lidice issue. Another aspect is that he isn't really needed. I mean, what's the value in having one more efficient sociopath NS Security Minister for Germany? I fully admit that's a minor concern, but still a factor here.

I would call him a Prince of Terror, personally. But with ministers dying and/or getting fired, he might be a factor. I don't agree that it opens up the L-word issue; that has no business in the game, case closed. He should have a chance to die off at the right time, and he should be in line for head of state or head of government if either Hitler or Hess bites it (or when Hess flies to the UK, as I assume he does, haven't played that far yet).

IMO, the most compelling argument is the Wansee issue. AFAIK, the only other person who attended that meeting, and is in the game is Himmler. Not to say that it's an "end of argument" thing, but must play a role in whatever the final decision is. Given Heydrich's role in that meeting, I think it weighs heavilly towards not putting him in.

Wannsee was just one step on a long road to horror. If Himmler were out for that reason, the logic would be consistent; I wouldn't agree with it, but I'd see the logic. Eicke, commander of the infamous 3 SS Pz-Div, is in the game--what of that? And so on. You cannot play a historical WWII game that names names without including some very unsavoury characters (from many nations). You most certainly can play one without including some very unsavoury events, and we're all on board with that. The two questions are not, in my mind, necessarily woven together.

No final decision here as yet, so please don't anyone take it as such. But don't expect a quick resolution either. What ever the end result is, I guarantee it will have been discussed to death..

Likely so. I agree with you that there are more compelling, pressing issues for CORE, but I also want to make my point as clearly as possible: whether to include an historical figure should depend on that figure's role, or potential role, in the military, political and economic mechanics of gameplay. (You note that I'm not proposing Rosenberg or Streicher.) To sanitize the game of truly unsavoury historical figures, you'd have to back up a very large truck.

jkk

 

[JRaup]

Not a problem. I think you know I'm enough on board that I wouldn't take us toward an uncrossable line, but I can see where that needs to be reinforced with others from time to time.

Was actually more worried about myself crossing the line. Fortunately I noticed where I was headed before it happened.

The discussion came before my time, I reckon. But even if it's been had, this is a new game. I remember some issues on the wiki that I felt were distinctly decided for reasons other than gameplay--specifically, vocal nationalism--and honestly, it was a partial reason I began to feel I really couldn't help the project as much as I otherwise might have.

Oh the stories I could tell. But alas, NDA...

I would call him a Prince of Terror, personally. But with ministers dying and/or getting fired, he might be a factor. I don't agree that it opens up the L-word issue; that has no business in the game, case closed. He should have a chance to die off at the right time, and he should be in line for head of state or head of government if either Hitler or Hess bites it (or when Hess flies to the UK, as I assume he does, haven't played that far yet).

This reminds me of another factor I had over looked. Heydrich was not an "up front" kind of guy. He much preferred to manipulate from the shadows. take his time as the SS #2 guy. Himmler was the official head of it, but nothing happened within the SS with out Heydrich's approval. He was of the theory that top guys are targets, so why be a target? He'd rather have the actual power, but not the position or titles. So I don't actually see him becoming anything mroe than the head of the SS should Himmler go away, though IMO Heydrich would have just found another figure head for him to manipulate. I definitely don't see him taking over as either HoS or HoG. Not just because of his aversion to the spot light, but more because he was so distrusted by everyone else. Even Himmler didn't trust him fully, and guys like Raeder and Goering detested him. Too bad we can't assign more than one trait, as political back stabber fits Heydrich as well.

Wannsee was just one step on a long road to horror. If Himmler were out for that reason, the logic would be consistent; I wouldn't agree with it, but I'd see the logic. Eicke, commander of the infamous 3 SS Pz-Div, is in the game--what of that? And so on. You cannot play a historical WWII game that names names without including some very unsavoury characters (from many nations). You most certainly can play one without including some very unsavoury events, and we're all on board with that. The two questions are not, in my mind, necessarily woven together.

It's a valid point IMO. IIRC, the decision from PI was that anyone associated with Wansee was to be excluded (Himmler the exception). Beyond that, it was more of a grey area to be dealt with. I don't believe that there are any KL guard commanders in the game either. I really can't make a fully commentary on this aspect, as I'm not privvy to all the decisions that were made, or how, just some specific issues.

Likely so. I agree with you that there are more compelling, pressing issues for CORE, but I also want to make my point as clearly as possible: whether to include an historical figure should depend on that figure's role, or potential role, in the military, political and economic mechanics of gameplay. (You note that I'm not proposing Rosenberg or Streicher.) To sanitize the game of truly unsavoury historical figures, you'd have to back up a very large truck.

jkk

I don't think the point was to sanitize the game of all unsavory characters, just those associated closely with certain events. While it may seem a bit inconsistent (it is), it does have a purpose. And there are some legal issues in some European nations concerning this, which was also a factor in deciding who got in or not. Maybe I can get Birch to drop in and give a bit more enlightenement on this, as he did the ministers and leaders..

 

[Veers]

...And there are some legal issues in some European nation...

Well not for just having him in the game (?)

 

[JRaup]

Well not for just having him in the game (?)

Actually yes from what I understand. But I'm not 100% conversant with the details, but there are issues that involve even him being in as a minister...maybe one of our German posters can illuminate us a bit more on this..

 

[unmerged(18202)]

Okay. Having Heydrich isn't very important; if I want him that bad I can figure out how to add him myself. Here's a more practical suggestion.

Right now the game is full of weird situations, and we've identified most of them. The Commonwealth countries are still going crazy building transports, not building enough naval units. Japan often doesn't invade China. Germans don't get a choice over Danish surrender. If Americans want to attack a neutral Vichy, too damn bad. Turkey's weak.

Many of these are tweakable and testable without a massive process. What would be really great is a fairly swift publication of CORE 0.1 focused mainly on fixing what's wrong with vanilla HOI (without attempting to code and add too many brand new events). There will be plenty of time for big tech tree revisions, models revisions and so on, all the things CORE does so well, and I'm eager for those. But how about something quick with an eye toward straightening out the main game problems, and get involved later with all the Leni Reifenstahl type stuff?

Any chance?

jkk

 

[Kevin Mc Carthy]

Many of these are tweakable and testable without a massive process. What would be really great is a fairly swift publication of CORE 0.1 focused mainly on fixing what's wrong with vanilla HOI (without attempting to code and add too many brand new events). There will be plenty of time for big tech tree revisions, models revisions and so on, all the things CORE does so well, and I'm eager for those. But how about something quick with an eye toward straightening out the main game problems, and get involved later with all the Leni Reifenstahl type stuff?

Any chance?

jkk

My opinion is no for a couple of very good reasons.

Paradox has said publicly that future enhancements will come out. Many of the CORE folks are Betas. Trying to use CORE to patch HOI2 right now would be a nightmare and possibly duplicative in effort. I think we should spend this time doing design not development.

 

[JRaup]

My opinion is no for a couple of very good reasons.

Paradox has said publicly that future enhancements will come out. Many of the CORE folks are Betas. Trying to use CORE to patch HOI2 right now would be a nightmare and possibly duplicative in effort. I think we should spend this time doing design not development.

I agree with Kevin here. There's a lot being done for 1.2 that will only help us for CORE IMO. A lot of what people want right now are things that will be handled for the most part in 1.2. Plus, as Kevin mentioned, with several of us being Beta's, out efforts are split, which slows down the CORE process a tad. There are plenty of things for us to do in CORE that will not duplicate what's being done for 1.2, and that's where the focus is ATM.

 

[unmerged(5869)]

is there an expected release date for CORE? Im currently close to met the prerequisits of the new order west events and want to know if i have to wait for a long time until i can download them, or if it is better to cut'n'paste them from the forum?

 

[JRaup]

is there an expected release date for CORE? Im currently close to met the prerequisits of the new order west events and want to know if i have to wait for a long time until i can download them, or if it is better to cut'n'paste them from the forum?

I advise to c&p the events if youwant to use them. No guarantees that they work as intended though...caveat emptor and all that...

 

[Spricar]

I'm sorry if I'm posting in the wrong thread, but would it be possible to add an event which would give a free (in terms of IC, it would still take some MP) garrison divison whenever you would defeat and annex a country? This would simulate excessive use of captured equipment (mostly by Germans) as well as some volunteers that joined the wermacht. So when you would annex an event would pop out asking you if you would like to form a garrison divison out of captured equipment for, say, 5 MP...

 

[JRaup]

I'm sorry if I'm posting in the wrong thread, but would it be possible to add an event which would give a free (in terms of IC, it would still take some MP) garrison divison whenever you would defeat and annex a country? This would simulate excessive use of captured equipment (mostly by Germans) as well as some volunteers that joined the wermacht. So when you would annex an event would pop out asking you if you would like to form a garrison divison out of captured equipment for, say, 5 MP...

Sure, you can do this.

You set the triggers to be NOT = { exists = TAG}. and control = { province = xxxx data = TAG}, so that the annexed country doesn't exist, and that the conqueror has control of the enemy capital. Then in the action portion, you have commands to add_division (garrison), and to subtract some MP from the MP pool. This will add the garrison division where you want it, at whatever cost you set. I'd probably add in a bit of a supply loss as well.

 

[unmerged(5869)]

copied the events and experienced some CTDs. One I could fix, the thing wwith AUS instead of AST, but other seem strange. When ever a hughe amount of those follow-up events fire (like Nepal makes peace, Rhodesian indepenced), I experience a CTD. Could this be a memory problem, or should I start analysing the events?

 

[JRaup]

copied the events and experienced some CTDs. One I could fix, the thing wwith AUS instead of AST, but other seem strange. When ever a hughe amount of those follow-up events fire (like Nepal makes peace, Rhodesian indepenced), I experience a CTD. Could this be a memory problem, or should I start analysing the events?

It might be a memory issue. Try freeing up some more memory and see if it happens again. Then if it still happens, you can start analyzing the events themselves.

 

[KILLER BOB]

PLEASE ignore my ignorence as i am nothing but a simple mass murderer
......Is there a version of C.O.R.E. out yet or not if not when :wacko:

 

[unmerged(24142)]

PLEASE ignore my ignorence as i am nothing but a simple mass murderer
......Is there a version of C.O.R.E. out yet or not if not when :wacko:

It's still being worked on. I'm not sure when they're planning to release the first version.

I'll be ready, though. The CORE team always produces excellent results.

 

[unmerged(40751)]

I Would really like to help to collect historical or ahistorical information for events in the new C.O.R.E Project for Germany. Im really intrested in the rise and downfall of The Third Reich so i have a wide collection of books that is about the time 1933-1945 era. I also have alot of "What if" scenario books about the Germans.

 

[JRaup]

I Would really like to help to collect historical or ahistorical information for events in the new C.O.R.E Project for Germany. Im really intrested in the rise and downfall of The Third Reich so i have a wide collection of books that is about the time 1933-1945 era. I also have alot of "What if" scenario books about the Germans.

Take a wander over to http://hoi.coremod.org and check out the CORE for HoI2 forum.

Feel free to post your ideas there..

 

[unmerged(40080)]

Steel: What is the estimated time of completion of CORE for HOI2? Please. Larry

 

[JRaup]

Steel: What is the estimated time of completion of CORE for HOI2? Please. Larry

I'm not Steel, but I can answer this.

There is no time line currently. In part, this is due to the wait for 1.2 and changes being made there, and in part is due to the time required to make all the changes to the tech trees. We've made some significant progress of late, but the process is still ongoing. Just be patient, as I think what we've got coming will be very good.

 

[Epaminondas]

It'll need to be. CORE for HoI I is a tough act to follow.

(Howdy DA)