Announcement: C.O.R.E. for Hearts of Iron 2

[Chengar Qordath]

I would think the idea behind the concept of the "Elite manpower" is a pretty good one actually, presumably this special new type of manpower would be meant to represent officers and people with special training, as opposed to the usual conscript with a few weeks of basic training. I'd think that if possible to be implemented the growth of Elite Manpower should also be tied to the Standing Army - Drafted Army slider, presumably a standing army would have a lot more in the way of trained officers and such.

I would think that having a way to represent officers and trained personel would be a very good idea, since they were a big issue. As others have pointed out Japan had serious problems late in the war because almost all of their trained pilots had been killed in action. Another example that comes to mind is the US army early in the war. The US had to build an army pretty quickly and IIRC in the early days of the war officers were being produced with about half the training time of German NCO's, which lead to problems like Kasserine Pass.

 

[baylox]

I agree. Personally I feel the best way to model this (technical considerations notwithstanding) would be to add a separate "elite manpower" pool for *every* country. Each division would require a small amount of EMP to represent the need for good officers, leaders, and technical personnel. Elite formations such as commando infantry, armor, and air units have higher EMP requirements. As the EMP pool gets depleted, formations will start getting less than their full requirement of EMP and receive a quality penalty.

This way we can model not only SS formations, but also the Soviet guards units, or even the inability of Japan to maintain pilot quality through the course of the war.

The idea of elite manpower may not be politically correct, but the quality of the fighting men has a very real effect in war. According to Anthony Beevor, Russians in Stalingrad noticed they were not fighting the same Germans as they fought in 1941. As Hitler bitterly proclaims in the movie "Downfall", the best Germans were dead already.

No, this is not something we can do. Altering the code is beyond us, for better or worse.

 

[Aregorn]

unfortunatly, that isn't really possible from a code side, besides that the SS was only one thing - well equppied fanatics. They took very high casulties, higher then the average wehrmacht unit, which surely isn't because they were particular good at fighting...

If you look at their leaders, most are old nazi members, Sepp Dietrich was a sergant, not an officer - yet he made it to SS-General, without additional training. the SS was good at holding desperate positions because they never knew when a retreat would be a good idea - they had noone who could tell them.

I guess you need a bit more reading . Here, begin with a little summary of
Dietrich as you mentioned him.

 

[Archangel85]

somehow, I find nothing in there that countered my description...

 

[Aregorn]

somehow, I find nothing in there that countered my description...

If you could not manage to see in the link which is a very summarised and short description of Dietrich (2 minutes to read) that your generalisation assessment is wrong, well then you need to read it one more time .
Just two Paragraphs copy pasted together with your statements:

Archangel:
Sepp Dietrich was a sergant, not an officer - yet he made it to SS-General, without additional training

Link:
General von Fritsch comes to like Dietrich a great deal and personally instructs him in war strategy as the SS Leibstandarte develops into an elite combat unit. (You do know who Fritsch was right?)

Archangel:
the SS was good at holding desperate positions because they never knew when a retreat would be a good idea - they had noone who could tell them.

Link:
...during the catastrophic 1941-42 winter campaign in Russia as he comes to know every man under his command by name. As the Wehrmacht fights a losing retreat back across Russia, he manages to save his troops at least seven times from annihilation. Writes Kurowski: "A natural front-line soldier, he knew how to extricate his troops even in the worst of battle situations and redeploy them swiftly for a deadly counter-attack." (Kurowski, 417).

And this is mentioned in a one Page description... Germany almost won the war against the world with comparative inferior forces, and this was mainly possible becuase important people thought the same as you do and underestimated hell until they felt in own flesh, but then for most it was already too late.

 

[unmerged(28944)]

Well said, Aregorn, well said!

 

[Archangel85]

If you could not manage to see in the link which is a very summarised and short description of Dietrich (2 minutes to read) that your generalisation assessment is wrong, well then you need to read it one more time .
Just two Paragraphs copy pasted together with your statements:

Archangel:
Sepp Dietrich was a sergant, not an officer - yet he made it to SS-General, without additional training

Link:
General von Fritsch comes to like Dietrich a great deal and personally instructs him in war strategy as the SS Leibstandarte develops into an elite combat unit. (You do know who Fritsch was right?)

It never says he was anything of a commissioned officer before he joined the SS...and, pardon my prussian ideas, "No sepp, send that battalion over there" does not count as officer training. It sounds like a Padawn, not something a quick thinking officer might come from. There is a reason why every military in the world has an officer training acedemy. if the Fritsch method would be very sucessful (aparently, it was not), why not assaign random Sergants to generals so they can become gernerals themselfes?

Archangel:
the SS was good at holding desperate positions because they never knew when a retreat would be a good idea - they had noone who could tell them.

Link:
...during the catastrophic 1941-42 winter campaign in Russia as he comes to know every man under his command by name. As the Wehrmacht fights a losing retreat back across Russia, he manages to save his troops at least seven times from annihilation. Writes Kurowski: "A natural front-line soldier, he knew how to extricate his troops even in the worst of battle situations and redeploy them swiftly for a deadly counter-attack." (Kurowski, 417).

Okay, I take that back about no one knowing when to retreat. My point still stands though, they were well equiped fanatics. Or can you tell me why they took higher casulties then the wehrmachts units around them? because they were elite? ("you're not elite until you take 20% casulties on every major engagement", hm?)

And this is mentioned in a one Page description... Germany almost won the war against the world with comparative inferior forces, and this was mainly possible becuase important people thought the same as you do and underestimated hell until they felt in own flesh, but then for most it was already too late.

at this, I can only laugh. "almost won the war against the world"? HA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Show me the detailed plans for an invasion of the american continent and I shall reconsider.

 

[Aregorn]

I have to say that your arguments are so very convincing

 

[Ghost_dk]

This thread explains how CORE will deal with SS units.

http://hoi.coremod.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=651&highlight=ss

 

[Archangel85]

I have to say that your arguments are so very convincing

and yours are better?

 

[Ghost_dk]

maybe you guys should cool down a bit. This really has nothing to do with CORE so if you wish to continue the discussion like this please take it to the historic forum. thx.

 

[unmerged(28944)]

Glad to see we've got that out of the way.

Now what's next?

 

[Wildhoney]

maybe stupid idea:

A sniper brigade, that could only be attached to some infantry unit, with some (20%,30%) chance of killing the leader of that army, with the exp. of that unit even more %, some bonuses and penalties depending on the area of the battle, penalty for movement, but bonus for an ambush ...

or to give 2%, 3% or more chances of a special event if attached to HQ, maybe more chances of enemy lider assassination.

sorry if its noobish idea

 

[EasilyConfused]

maybe stupid idea:

A sniper brigade, that could only be attached to some infantry unit, with some (20%,30%) chance of killing the leader of that army, with the exp. of that unit even more %, some bonuses and penalties depending on the area of the battle, penalty for movement, but bonus for an ambush ...

or to give 2%, 3% or more chances of a special event if attached to HQ, maybe more chances of enemy lider assassination.

sorry if its noobish idea

Well there was no such thing as a sniper brigade. Be pretty useless unit in real life if you think about it. Snipers are effective because you can have a few in cover, large numbers won't work. But don't worry about having "noobish ideas," always better to make an impractial suggestion than keep quiet on a good point.

 

[unmerged(43593)]

On Snipers

First of Sniper are not in Brigades, Snipers only work in Detachments, And Another Rule due to the Rules of Geneva Convetion, Snipers are not allowed to Take out Political Leaders, they may how ever spy on them through scope.

And IF you all want to talk to a sniper pm me, I can tell you of the rules and custom of a military police sniper. I even share photos of my tour In Iraq, Now I like the hearts of Iron Game, me and My Commander like to play this game, IT would be neat to add something like Snipers to certian unit but like it only adds 0.1% to soft attacks, yeah that be neat having something like Detachments attach to Division, a smaller version of brigades, that be neat.

But its just a suggestion. Anyhow though I read that about a sniper brigade, the most snipers you have to a a divison is one detachment, 45 men at most, all working in two man teams except for the CO, under one Brigade, For me Example I was in the 415th Militarp Police Detachment, which Fell Under the 759th MP Battiolin, which was Under the 3rd ID.

aany how if the IDeal of doing detachments comes up Me and Some of the guys would like to help., Plus my CO is a big Hisstory Buff so I could get info from him too.

 

[unmerged(29005)]

Now... I know its not a concrete piece of anything... but in the game The Operational Art of War... there was a Korean scenario which had several brigades of snipers on the NK side...

 

[unmerged(43593)]

Oh my spelling sucks, i need to check my spelling, anyhow American Snipers are only in Detachments, IF that Helps. ITs the Same for the Brits also.

 

[EasilyConfused]

Now... I know its not a concrete piece of anything... but in the game The Operational Art of War... there was a Korean scenario which had several brigades of snipers on the NK side...

Wow somebody else who plays that game. Which Korea are you refering to? 50-51 or 99? In either one the OOB is rather innacurate, though the former still plays well.

 

[Wildhoney]

I said "brigade" cause i didnt know how to call it... im new to the game... im more into fps and true FRPG But i know how "the real sniper operate", wasent sniper myself but i had some sort of training within the army.

Sniper's cant have great soft attack, and they should not have any, but they should have an ability to hurt units organisation % bu assassinating CO however, having a sniper with the division can have more benefits... RECON missions, like i said, better chance for ambush + better % on millitary intel in the area where the sniper's are, ...

 

[|AXiN|]

IIRC the Soviets used snipers in much larger units than anyone else did.