Annex the Pope or keep as vassal?

[BlueKnight123]

I'm playing a game as France in the new Art of War expansion. I managed to peacefully vassalize the Papal State (an OPM holding only Rome at the time). However with the new Art of War changes, I've found it impossible to become Papal Controller, holding the title only once despite having 7 Cardinals, +200 relations with the Pope, and all my Papal Influence being spent on increasing my chance to be the next controller. The Pope meanwhile has 0 cardinals but yet manages to become controller over and over again and always has a good chance of getting it next time around. I am tempted to just annex him to give myself a better chance of becoming controller, but I am concerned that I would lose the +100% papal influence bonus for having excellent relations with the Papal State. On top of that I was also thinking about spending papal influence on boosting mercantilism, since it seems like the easiest way to raise it. But if I annex the pope and cut my papal influence income in half, I would double the time it takes to raise mercantilism. What's the best strategy here? Is it even worth bothering with the Papal Controller title when I can focus on mercantilism instead? Or should I just annex the Pope, spend enough influence to keep myself controller and raise mercantilism more slowly?

 

[Amroth]

In my opinion as catholic never annex the pope.

 

[mozgriken]

If you annex, it will trigger an event that demands you cede Roma to the papacy. If you refuse, a papal sympathizer usually grants them a province somewhere in german HRE. However, refusing is -1 stability and a massive opinion malus with every catholic state. You can avoid the stab hit if you have filled diplo ideas. Usually I'll only annex the pope if I'm not catholic.

 

[henzington]

if you want to make Italy you will need rome but honestly the negative event isn't that bad.

 

[Pellucid]

if you want to make Italy you will need rome but honestly the negative event isn't that bad.

There's a negative permanent modifier too: "Conquest of Rome" gives a small penalty if you're Catholic now.

 

[unmerged(526249)]

The problem with annexing the Papal State to eliminate it as a rival to control the papacy is that one of the German theocracies is probably going to form the Papal States

 

[BlueKnight123]

The problem with annexing the Papal State to eliminate it as a rival to control the papacy is that one of the German theocracies is probably going to form the Papal States

What exactly are the rules that determine who can become the next Papal State? Does it have to be a theocracy? If so couldn't I just destroy every theocracy that is still around to make sure that can't happen?

 

[Mef]

What exactly are the rules that determine who can become the next Papal State? Does it have to be a theocracy? If so couldn't I just destroy every theocracy that is still around to make sure that can't happen?

The event only happens for theocracies that own between 2 and 4 provinces, are not the Teutonic or Livonian Order and have a province that is eligible to be ceded to the pope (catholic non-capital province). It also won't happen if Italy exists.
So it's actually quite easy to stop the Papal State from coming into existance again.

 

[Incompetent]

There's a negative permanent modifier too: "Conquest of Rome" gives a small penalty if you're Catholic now.

It's actually quite a serious penalty, as it kills your Papal Influence. Never try to hold Rome directly as a Catholic unless you are trying to form Italy. If you really feel the need to wipe out the Papal State, make sure Rome goes to a non-Catholic country.

As a non-Catholic, taking Rome for yourself is a great idea (assuming you're not scared of any Catholic powers) as it gives you an extra missionary and a permanent +1 prestige income.

 

[BlueKnight123]

It's actually quite a serious penalty, as it kills your Papal Influence. Never take Rome as a Catholic unless you are trying to form Italy.

As a non-Catholic though, taking Rome is a great idea (assuming you're not scared of any Catholic powers) as it gives you an extra missionary and a permanent +1 prestige income.

Can you clarify what you mean by it killing papal influence? How big of a penalty is it?

 

[Incompetent]

Can you clarify what you mean by it killing papal influence? How big of a penalty is it?

-1 diplomatic reputation and -10 papal influence. The penalty to diprep is manageable, but that penalty to papal influence is overwhelming.

 

[BlueKnight123]

-1 diplomatic reputation and -10 papal influence. The penalty to diprep is manageable, but that penalty to papal influence is overwhelming.

That's definitely a massive penalty. Guess I'll just keep the Pope around then.

 

[Pellucid]

That's definitely a massive penalty. Guess I'll just keep the Pope around then.

Well, the one thing you can do to mitigate it is Declare Statute in Restraint of Appeals. Since that decision also kills your papal influence but gives you some nice modifiers, conquering Rome and having Statute is acceptable.

 

[artemis667]

Well, the one thing you can do to mitigate it is Declare Statute in Restraint of Appeals. Since that decision also kills your papal influence but gives you some nice modifiers, conquering Rome and having Statute is acceptable.

Very much so. Papal influence is not essential. The little boosts you can buy are nice enough don't get me wrong, and if you're lucky enough to get curia controller than that's awesome in many ways! But owning Rome (especially if you aim to unite Italy) and/or having the statute - particularly the latter - are very good tradeoffs.

 

[Incompetent]

Very much so. Papal influence is not essential. The little boosts you can buy are nice enough don't get me wrong, and if you're lucky enough to get curia controller than that's awesome in many ways! But owning Rome (especially if you aim to unite Italy) and/or having the statute - particularly the latter - are very good tradeoffs.

It's a matter of taste I suppose, but with zero Papal Influence, I'd rather switch to Protestant or Reformed. That way, you actually get a bonus for owning Rome.

 

[FrigidSoul]

It's a matter of taste I suppose, but with zero Papal Influence, I'd rather switch to Protestant or Reformed. That way, you actually get a bonus for owning Rome.

yeah, start integrating the vassalized pope, then convert to Reformed when the integration's about to finish.

 

[thErgonomic]

So from what I gather at the moment the only logical choice if I plan to form Italy is to convert to protestantinism, right?
IMHO there should be some kind of an option to create the Vatican or something like that for Italy.

 

[artemis667]

So from what I gather at the moment the only logical choice if I plan to form Italy is to convert to protestantinism, right?
IMHO there should be some kind of an option to create the Vatican or something like that for Italy.

Maybe it's the best choice, but I don't think you're forced to. Catholicism has it's own bonus - +1 to true faith tolerance - which isn't horrible or anything. And you could form Italy, stay Catholic, and sell Rome back to the pope afterward, assuming that he's popped up elsewhere. I haven't actually formed Italy myself yet - should try it in my next game.

 

[Pellucid]

Maybe it's the best choice, but I don't think you're forced to. Catholicism has it's own bonus - +1 to true faith tolerance - which isn't horrible or anything. And you could form Italy, stay Catholic, and sell Rome back to the pope afterward, assuming that he's popped up elsewhere. I haven't actually formed Italy myself yet - should try it in my next game.

Also, again, you can pass the Statute.