Ah. Don't worry. Just because OKW is paying *less* attention to Asia now that it is unlikely anything intersting is going to happen there doesn't mean we're paying *no* attention to Asia.
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Ah. Don't worry. Just because OKW is paying *less* attention to Asia now that it is unlikely anything intersting is going to happen there doesn't mean we're paying *no* attention to Asia.
interesting read so far.
Regarding case red I wounder if resource considerations were of any imporatance for the OKW? The Netherlands can be quite a good supplier of rares and some oil- given their land border with Germany the trades would always run at 100%...
Not having played any HoI3 though I do not know if thats really much of a hassle, you (still) seem to be able to stock well enough stuff to live through the war.
If I may request that I would like to know the performace of the armored corps in your armies in the upcoming campaigns. Naively I would be sceptical that the AI can use them to their full extend tactially, while a fast army might very well be worthwile to snatch that far-of VP or do some nice supersized encirlements...
Regarding case red I wounder if resource considerations were of any imporatance for the OKW? The Netherlands can be quite a good supplier of rares and some oil- given their land border with Germany the trades would always run at 100%...
Not having played any HoI3 though I do not know if thats really much of a hassle, you (still) seem to be able to stock well enough stuff to live through the war.
If I may request that I would like to know the performace of the armored corps in your armies in the upcoming campaigns. Naively I would be sceptical that the AI can use them to their full extend tactially, while a fast army might very well be worthwile to snatch that far-of VP or do some nice supersized encirlements...
The main problem with counting on tradw witht eh Netherlands in my game is that it seems almost inevitable they will join the allies at some point. Perhaps when influence is made weaker as well as when threat generation is fixed, along with neutrality for some minor dropping far too fast. I also think the gap between threat and neutrality required to join a faction is too high, but I can't be certain until the other issues are fixed.
Guanxi clique in my game is starting to build high levels of threat again, for no apprarent reason I can determine, they are conquering no new territory (the asian theatre has been static since the Japanese lost the mainland). It's a little odd. I may need to fix their threat to a more resonable level again.
Probably no update today, I haven't finished playing through 1939, and its likely that by the time I do I won't be able to update anyway.
Hey great stuff Chilango2! I have just caught up. I like your interpretation that mirrors history and gives us a sense of the dilemma faced by the OKW at the time. One thing way back on page 6 that caught my eye was your assessment of army forces and manpower.
You stated that you were low on MP because you had built the historical force of Germany (39) already in 1938. I am not sure if you have increased the division count much beyond 100, but I can tell you the actual historical division totals of Germany at times of interest throughout WW2.
Sept. 1, 1939
INF- 94
ARM- 10 (4 being "light divisions")
MTN- 3
MOT- 5
TOTAL: 112
May 10, 1940
INF- 142
ARM- 10
CAV- 1
MTN- 3
GAR- 1
MOT- 8
TOTAL: 165
June 22, 1941
INF- 158
ARM- 21
CAV- 1
MTN- 6
GAR- 8
MOT- 15
TOTAL: 209
Available MP in 1.1c is just a bit low. Hopefully we can get some more put in soon and not just for Germany, but perhaps all the majors.
You stated that you were low on MP because you had built the historical force of Germany (39) already in 1938. I am not sure if you have increased the division count much beyond 100, but I can tell you the actual historical division totals of Germany at times of interest throughout WW2.
Sept. 1, 1939
INF- 94
ARM- 10 (4 being "light divisions")
MTN- 3
MOT- 5
TOTAL: 112
May 10, 1940
INF- 142
ARM- 10
CAV- 1
MTN- 3
GAR- 1
MOT- 8
TOTAL: 165
June 22, 1941
INF- 158
ARM- 21
CAV- 1
MTN- 6
GAR- 8
MOT- 15
TOTAL: 209
Available MP in 1.1c is just a bit low. Hopefully we can get some more put in soon and not just for Germany, but perhaps all the majors.
Scenario set-up is often contradictory.
E.g. there is no way you can achieve the same set-up and MP-pool in the 36' scen, compared to the 39' scenario. If you take MP+MP-growth+Brigadesx3 you get an estimate of the total manpower available and invested, and the numbers are:
Germany: 1936 -> 964, 1938 -> 1039, 1939 -> 1744.
=> A german player should start in 1939.
This goes for some countries, not for others. Germany has the greatest disparity, France/Japan the lowest (except for 1938, which benefits both), SU gets a late-start-advantage, so does GB. Did not check for US because frankly ... who cares about them. This is a european war.
To put this straight: You cannot meet the historical divisional set-up, but this also applies to your opponent, which evens it out a bit (though France and Japan will be relatively stronger at a 1936 start).
E.g. there is no way you can achieve the same set-up and MP-pool in the 36' scen, compared to the 39' scenario. If you take MP+MP-growth+Brigadesx3 you get an estimate of the total manpower available and invested, and the numbers are:
Germany: 1936 -> 964, 1938 -> 1039, 1939 -> 1744.
=> A german player should start in 1939.
This goes for some countries, not for others. Germany has the greatest disparity, France/Japan the lowest (except for 1938, which benefits both), SU gets a late-start-advantage, so does GB. Did not check for US because frankly ... who cares about them. This is a european war.
To put this straight: You cannot meet the historical divisional set-up, but this also applies to your opponent, which evens it out a bit (though France and Japan will be relatively stronger at a 1936 start).
Our of curiosity, could you link me to yout source? I got my numbers from wikipedia, FWIW.
Insofar as my force comparison: There's some uncertainty to that, as I'm not certain if my estimation that one brigade of tanks= 100 tanks is correct. That *sounds* right, certaintly.
I currently have 5 corps consisting of 3 'light' panzer divisions consisting of 2 L Arm and 1 Mot, and 3 corps of 3 medium panzer divisions consisting of 1 arm and 2 mot brigades. So that would be roughly 3000 light tanks and 900 medium tanks. I believe I have more tanks that Fall Weis did, therefore . I also have 33 briagdes total of Mot Infantry, or 11 divisions worth. Most of the sources I'm pulling up claim that your average panzer division consisted of 1 panzer and 1 mototized infantry brigade, so each of my divisions is stronger overall as well.
Infantry wise in the east I have 12 corps consisting of 3 divisions, or 36 divisions.
About half of those divisions now consist of 2 infantry brigades and 1 artillery brigade, the rest are still 3 infantry brigades. Infantry wise, therefore, I'm weaker, overall, since my division composition, as far as I can tell, mirrors the historical Herr: a division consisted of 3 regiments, which consisted of 3 battalions, a regiment would be a HOI3 'brigade', and your average battalion is usually around 1000 men. Since your average infantry brigade is 3000 men, that's about right.
EDIT: A little further research found this which claims that the avergae battalion was 820 men. On a briagde level, that means I have 540 more men per brigade than the historical OOB. This would translate to an extra 19.44 divisions, call it 20. That would mean a total of 56 divisions, which is closer to history, but still a good bit under, assuming your numbers are divisions, not brigades. I do however, have a much stronger force in the west, France has 6 infantry korps, or 18 infantry divisions, and there are two more armies with 12 more infantry divisions gathered at their starting points for Case Red. Wikipedia, btw, claims 60 divisions for Case White.
At some point shortly after the war starts I'm probably going to start building more lone arm brigades so that my regular panzer brigades will have 2 arm and 1 mot. The extra panzer divisions will fill out the panzerkorps, at that point some of the L Arm brigades will be doing garrison duty and other such tasks rather than forming the core of the panzer arm. My goal is to have four full panzerarmees for Barbarossa. We'll see how that goes.
I'm half way through 1939 and am hopeful of getting an update up today as soon as I finish playing through it. Update no later than tomorrow, certainly.
In the end, after debating back and forth, I've decided to sign the M-R pact. Not doing so has many potential advantages, but it also opens up a world of uncertainty. The more uncertain the situation, the more trouble OKW will have implementing its war plan properly.
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Sure, Axis History Factbook at http://www.axishistory.com. Specifically this information is at http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=7289
I would think about 150 tanks per regiment or "HOI3 Armored brigade."
You certainly do. You have what, 9 light armored divisions with 1 regiment of armor each and 16 divisions of 2 regiments each...in RL they had 6 armored (2 regiments of tanks) and 4 light (one regiment of tanks) for a total of 16 armored regiments compared to your 34?
Yes you have a precious few infantry divisions in comparison, but relative to your enemies I think you'll be fine. At least until you attack the USSR, if you should decide to do so. Again, Germany had over 150 inf divisions of mostly 3 regiment divisions to work with in 1941. They did not switch to the 2 regiment form until 1944, so you're a bit early there.
I'm not sure how it works in HoI3, but in HoI2 Germany ran out of oil quickly when too many mobile units were buzzing around the map. That would be my only concern with so many armored units...not to mention the increased supply cost and the opportunity cost associated.
Great! Can't wait for more! I think signing the MR pact is a good idea, who knows if the pesky Soviets would otherwise launch an attack the day after you declare war on France and the low countries...
Wel,, I'm creating the 2 infantry 1 art structure early because as noted earlier, I probably don't have the manpower Germany historically had, and it was clear starting around 1938 that I was going to need alot of infantry divisions just to cover the ground necessary. I'll lose some theoreticla frontage since divisions with 3 frontline brigades can achieve 12 frontage on a province, but given that 3 divisions is a fairly thick concentration for a single province to have in my experience, this shouldn't be too much of a problem.
One of the things I've learned by looking at the unit stats more carefully is that what seems 'logical' especially from a HOI2 prespective, is not actually true. An armor brigade, for example, is more MP expensive than an infantry brigade, it seems, and significantly so.
On the oil issue, I just got through 1939 and I currently have 99k fuel and 10k oil that's slowly building up from converted energy. Given my conversion rates, that's about another 15k fuel once it's converted. I calculated that I could use -100 oil every day from Jan 1st 1940 and run out of oil sometime in 1944. In other words, my fuel situation is actually very good. We'll see what oil sue is like for the Poland campaign: every single panzer division except one is going to be involved in it, so that should give us a fair estimation of what oil use will be like with my current forces during an active campaign. Once that's established we'll have a baseline to work from.
As mentioned, I just finished playing through 1939. WW2 has not started yet, so OKW's plan to start on March 1st or so is looking secure.
I'll post the 1939 year end summary tomorrow.
Beyond that, I'm starting classes next week and we'll also be hitting the actual war, so I expect our update schedule will slow down slightly, and each update may be smaller. I'll see how it goes, and try to get in as much playtime before classes start as possible.
I re-read Panzer General by Heinz Guderian not that long ago, and I did a littlee browsing just now. During the campaigns in Poland and the West, a Panzer division (NB not a light division) consisted of 2 panzer regiments of 3 battalions each. Each battalion had 4 companies of 16 tanks each plus a small number of command tanks/AFVs. Therefore each panzer regiment had a total strength of around 190 tanks for a total of ~380 for an entire division, usually a mixture of medium and heavy tanks within each regiment. This was, of course, the paper strength of the division and was routinely much lower due to mechanical wear and tear, training obligations, and combat losses.
During the winter of 40-41 the panzer divisions were combed out and stripped of one of their panzer regiments, in order to form new panzer divisions. Many historians complained that this was a classic Hitler ploy/megalomania, and that he simply wanted to see 20 panzer divisions listed on the OOB (at the cost of half of the tank strength of each division). However, Guderian made note of the fact that there was never enough motorized infantry to accompany the tanks, so the change in the ratio of Pz brigades to Pz. Grd/Mot Inf brigades was not as bad as many people think.
During the winter of 40-41 the panzer divisions were combed out and stripped of one of their panzer regiments, in order to form new panzer divisions. Many historians complained that this was a classic Hitler ploy/megalomania, and that he simply wanted to see 20 panzer divisions listed on the OOB (at the cost of half of the tank strength of each division). However, Guderian made note of the fact that there was never enough motorized infantry to accompany the tanks, so the change in the ratio of Pz brigades to Pz. Grd/Mot Inf brigades was not as bad as many people think.
I'm going to go ahead and play through March 1st and include that in the summary report, we'll then move to war report format.
One minor note: after seeing how the Future of Greece events play out, I've edited them slightly. In 1.1c if the Greeks refuse Italian demands, Greece declares war on Italy, dragging the rest of the Axis in, the allies then join Greece. Since the AI rather predictably enacts any decision it has, without fail, as soon as it has the option to do so, this meant the war was staring on Jan 2nd of 1940, which strikes me as silly. Instead, I've edited the event so Italy declares war on *Greece*, the AI axis will probably join in, but Germany, of course, won't, it has a timetable, after all.
So I'll let the Italians start their Greek adventure, the war shouldn't be all that active during the 3 months I'm sitting out of it.
EDIT: That doesn't seem to work either, so we'll do things the sloppier way and not make the decision available until March.
One minor note: after seeing how the Future of Greece events play out, I've edited them slightly. In 1.1c if the Greeks refuse Italian demands, Greece declares war on Italy, dragging the rest of the Axis in, the allies then join Greece. Since the AI rather predictably enacts any decision it has, without fail, as soon as it has the option to do so, this meant the war was staring on Jan 2nd of 1940, which strikes me as silly. Instead, I've edited the event so Italy declares war on *Greece*, the AI axis will probably join in, but Germany, of course, won't, it has a timetable, after all.
So I'll let the Italians start their Greek adventure, the war shouldn't be all that active during the 3 months I'm sitting out of it.
EDIT: That doesn't seem to work either, so we'll do things the sloppier way and not make the decision available until March.
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Rather than edit the event files, could you instead load up as Greece and either leave the Allies or play thru the wartime?
[size=+2]OKW Final Pre-War Report: Jan 1939- April 1940[/size]
1939 was a quiet year, the quiet that comes just before a storm. The final pieces of OKW's overall war plan were put in place, commander assignments were reviewed twice, at the beginning of 1939 and again at the beginning of 1940. The overall organization of the Wehrmacht was further refined. Our intellgence services began the long overdue involvement in the overall propganda war in order to slow the allies pull of various nations into its ranks. By raising the threat of the UK, France, and Poland, we were able to significantly slow down, and in some cases even reverse the slow march of various neutrals to the allies.
On the 1st of the year Italy demanded the surrender of Albania, and King Zog, somewhat surprisingly, agreed, and the Italians quickly asserted their control over the area.
On March 12th, our Foreign ministry succeeded in cementing an agreement with the Soviets, this Non-Aggression Pact has a secret protocol to partition Poland upon its conquest. This will secure our eastern theater after the conquest of Poland so that we may focus our attention on France.
On August 15th the airbases we've been building since 1936 for Case Red & Case White finally finish building up to level 4.
Around October, the Japanese made their first offensive move since the disaster of the Chinese war and began retaking some of the home islands:
They would finish recapturing the home islands a few days later.
On Dec 2th we finally got Mechanized Offensive Doctrine to 3, allowing us to begin developing a more granular level of combined arms warfare wherein our armor and infantry will be taught to work together at the battalion and even platoon level.
On Dec 20th, Luxemburg joined the Allies. We moved some of the Infantry divisions devoted for Case Red into their starting positions along the Luxembourg border to defend it. The main forces will remain a province back in order to attempt to preserve the element of surprise.
On Jan 2nd of 1940 Bulgaria, with our support, demanded the area of Dobrogea from Romania, this will hurt our efforts to draw them into the Axis, but really, its their fault for not making up their minds already. Better to help the ally I have.
By February 22nd its obvious that weather is not going to cooperate with our planned start date, much of western Poland is either frozen or muddy or both. The start date is moved up to April 1st.
We begin mobilizing our forces on the morning of March 24th, our reinforcement demands go up to 36 IC, it will require 130 MP to fully reinforce our forces, more than we actually have availble. A few hours later, Luxembourg begins mobilizing, and that evening, so does Poland. Our consumer goods demand temporarily jumps up to 80IC from something like 70 IC.
Just for the record, on March 25th OB West is currently asking for 28 Armor brigades & 3 Tac Bombers, OB Ost is not asking for anything.
Weather is still less than ideal, but its doable and we don't want to delay further and give more of the allies a chance to mobilize or Poland chance to finish mobilizing.
The morning of April 1st we demand Danzig, as expected our demands are refused and we declare war. At the same time we finally agree to one of Japan's perennial requests to join its war against China, since joining that war can no longer muck anything up.
World War 2 has officially begun as of April 1st at 1:00 UST.
Tech Advances:
1939
Single Engine Airframe & Armament to 1: Jan 8th
Medium Tank armor to 2: Feb 4th
Aero Engine to 1: Feb 9th
Med. Tank Engine & Reliability to 2: Feb 19th
Mechanized Offensive to 2: March 7th
Twin Engine Armament to 1: March 11th
Med Tank Gun to 2: March 16th
Sub Hull to 4: May 13th
Artillery Barrel & Carriage to 5, Rocket Artillery Ammunition to 1: May 15th
Rocket Carriage to 1: May 16th
Adv. Aircraft Design: May 18th
Sub AA & Torpedos to 4: May 22nd
Med Bomb to 1: May 26th
Light Bomb to 1: June 13th
Sub Sonar to 2: June 20th
Aircraft Carrier Tech: July 8th
Radar to 2: July 19th
Sub Air Warning to 2: Sept 20th
Encryption Machine to 2: Sept 24th
Twin Engine armamaent to 2: Sept 27th
Sub Sonar to 3: Oct 11th
Large Warship Radar to 1: Oct 27th
Mechanized Infantry & Sub Hull to 5: Nov 1st
Sub AA to 5: Nov 7th
Artillery Carriage to 6: Nov 17th
Artillery Barrel to 6, Rocket Carriage & Ammunition to 2: Nov 18th
Sub Torpedoes to 5: Nov 23rd
Mechanized Offensive to 3: Dec 20th
Decryption Machine to 2: Dec 21st
Sub Air warning to 3: Dec 23rd
Begin 1940
Small Warship, Small Air Search & Medium Air Search radar to 1: Jan 1st
Sub Sonar to 4: Jan 19th, 1940
Fleet Auxiliary Sub Doctrine: Feb 25th
CV AA to 1: March 5th
Militia Support weapons to 2: March 14th
Fighter Targeting Focus & Forward Air Control to 1: March 19th
Ground Attack Tactics to 1 & Sub Air warning to 4: March 26th
Electronic Computer to 1 & Militia Small arms to 2: March 27th
Interdiction tactics to 1: March 28th
1939 was a quiet year, the quiet that comes just before a storm. The final pieces of OKW's overall war plan were put in place, commander assignments were reviewed twice, at the beginning of 1939 and again at the beginning of 1940. The overall organization of the Wehrmacht was further refined. Our intellgence services began the long overdue involvement in the overall propganda war in order to slow the allies pull of various nations into its ranks. By raising the threat of the UK, France, and Poland, we were able to significantly slow down, and in some cases even reverse the slow march of various neutrals to the allies.
On the 1st of the year Italy demanded the surrender of Albania, and King Zog, somewhat surprisingly, agreed, and the Italians quickly asserted their control over the area.
On March 12th, our Foreign ministry succeeded in cementing an agreement with the Soviets, this Non-Aggression Pact has a secret protocol to partition Poland upon its conquest. This will secure our eastern theater after the conquest of Poland so that we may focus our attention on France.
On August 15th the airbases we've been building since 1936 for Case Red & Case White finally finish building up to level 4.
Around October, the Japanese made their first offensive move since the disaster of the Chinese war and began retaking some of the home islands:
They would finish recapturing the home islands a few days later.
On Dec 2th we finally got Mechanized Offensive Doctrine to 3, allowing us to begin developing a more granular level of combined arms warfare wherein our armor and infantry will be taught to work together at the battalion and even platoon level.
On Dec 20th, Luxemburg joined the Allies. We moved some of the Infantry divisions devoted for Case Red into their starting positions along the Luxembourg border to defend it. The main forces will remain a province back in order to attempt to preserve the element of surprise.
On Jan 2nd of 1940 Bulgaria, with our support, demanded the area of Dobrogea from Romania, this will hurt our efforts to draw them into the Axis, but really, its their fault for not making up their minds already. Better to help the ally I have.
By February 22nd its obvious that weather is not going to cooperate with our planned start date, much of western Poland is either frozen or muddy or both. The start date is moved up to April 1st.
We begin mobilizing our forces on the morning of March 24th, our reinforcement demands go up to 36 IC, it will require 130 MP to fully reinforce our forces, more than we actually have availble. A few hours later, Luxembourg begins mobilizing, and that evening, so does Poland. Our consumer goods demand temporarily jumps up to 80IC from something like 70 IC.
Just for the record, on March 25th OB West is currently asking for 28 Armor brigades & 3 Tac Bombers, OB Ost is not asking for anything.
Weather is still less than ideal, but its doable and we don't want to delay further and give more of the allies a chance to mobilize or Poland chance to finish mobilizing.
The morning of April 1st we demand Danzig, as expected our demands are refused and we declare war. At the same time we finally agree to one of Japan's perennial requests to join its war against China, since joining that war can no longer muck anything up.
World War 2 has officially begun as of April 1st at 1:00 UST.
Tech Advances:
1939
Single Engine Airframe & Armament to 1: Jan 8th
Medium Tank armor to 2: Feb 4th
Aero Engine to 1: Feb 9th
Med. Tank Engine & Reliability to 2: Feb 19th
Mechanized Offensive to 2: March 7th
Twin Engine Armament to 1: March 11th
Med Tank Gun to 2: March 16th
Sub Hull to 4: May 13th
Artillery Barrel & Carriage to 5, Rocket Artillery Ammunition to 1: May 15th
Rocket Carriage to 1: May 16th
Adv. Aircraft Design: May 18th
Sub AA & Torpedos to 4: May 22nd
Med Bomb to 1: May 26th
Light Bomb to 1: June 13th
Sub Sonar to 2: June 20th
Aircraft Carrier Tech: July 8th
Radar to 2: July 19th
Sub Air Warning to 2: Sept 20th
Encryption Machine to 2: Sept 24th
Twin Engine armamaent to 2: Sept 27th
Sub Sonar to 3: Oct 11th
Large Warship Radar to 1: Oct 27th
Mechanized Infantry & Sub Hull to 5: Nov 1st
Sub AA to 5: Nov 7th
Artillery Carriage to 6: Nov 17th
Artillery Barrel to 6, Rocket Carriage & Ammunition to 2: Nov 18th
Sub Torpedoes to 5: Nov 23rd
Mechanized Offensive to 3: Dec 20th
Decryption Machine to 2: Dec 21st
Sub Air warning to 3: Dec 23rd
Begin 1940
Small Warship, Small Air Search & Medium Air Search radar to 1: Jan 1st
Sub Sonar to 4: Jan 19th, 1940
Fleet Auxiliary Sub Doctrine: Feb 25th
CV AA to 1: March 5th
Militia Support weapons to 2: March 14th
Fighter Targeting Focus & Forward Air Control to 1: March 19th
Ground Attack Tactics to 1 & Sub Air warning to 4: March 26th
Electronic Computer to 1 & Militia Small arms to 2: March 27th
Interdiction tactics to 1: March 28th
I need to spend some time with my wife and I have a D&D game this evening, so no further updates today in all likelyhood.
Tomorrow I'll post updates looking at the situation in detail upon the outbreak of war: the balance of forces, the equipment of my own forces and at least a rough version of my OOB, as well as a look at the execution of Case White.
Tomorrow I'll post updates looking at the situation in detail upon the outbreak of war: the balance of forces, the equipment of my own forces and at least a rough version of my OOB, as well as a look at the execution of Case White.
Hmm, interesting to see you're continuing the work on carriers, albeit at a slow pace.
Your OOBs should also be revealing.
Your OOBs should also be revealing.
Yay Japan's finally getting off their arse and taking the fight to the Chinese! Now if only the IJN can ferry the IJA over successfully...and keep 'em supplied...
I'm surprised you joined against Nat. China........
You could still have tried to stay away from war with the US.
Looking forward to war.
You could still have tried to stay away from war with the US.
Looking forward to war.
I'm surprised you joined against Nat. China........
You could still have tried to stay away from war with the US.
Looking forward to war.
This is not going to occur due to join the war with Nat China unless one of the following happens:
1) The Japanese threat to the US gets within 50 of their neutrality.
2) The US is drawn into perfect alignment with the allies, and is able to join them. They are currently quite some distance from their alignment, and currently heading away from them.
Mind you, my european conquests might heighten *germany's* threat to the US and it could be brought in, but the war in Nat China is not going to be the cause then. This scenairo is exceedingly more likely than the above. Remember, if Japan DOW's the US, I am not obligated to join, I only join if the US Dow's Japan. And this already had the potential to occur ever since Japan became an axis member.
I'm not sure I understand. Britain and the US are not allied. The US is not in the allies faction, the entire goal of my charm campaign with them was to prevent them from ever becoming part of the allies. Therefore, the UK cannot call the US into the war....