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The Kingmaker

AlexanderPrimus
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What you've got so far sounds good. Wish I could offer some decent solutions to the problems you're encountering.

Of course, this might all be solved if Paradox just gave us Witan Elective... ;)
 

SirDraco

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It will be exclusive to Saxons, yes, simply because instances of any other culture using the title are too rare to bother. It's not a mod on it's own, BTW, it's part of the one in my sig.

As for the conditions, there are lots of problems and if I can't bypass them, I'll either have to simplify the method by which the trait is distributed (probably at the expense of historical accuracy) or drop it entirely. The requirements - aside from being 16, Saxon, male (if agnatic succession is in effect), and not having any major negative congenital traits like inbred, or other negative traits like incapable - are that you either have a claim on a kingdom or empire with a Saxon ruler with elective succession, or you have a Saxon dynasty member who is a king or emperor, again with elective succession. I can't find a condition that specifies that the title must be kingdom or empire title (the ones I have found evidently don't work in that context) nor can I find a condition that stipulates that the holder of the kingdom/empire you have a claim on is Saxon. Nor can I seem to find quite the right condition for the claim part ("any_claim" doesn't seem to quite work here).

So anyone with a claim on the Kingdom will be classed as a aetheling? Will there be a difference between Strong and weak claims if that is the case?
 

Lysistrata

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So anyone with a claim on the Kingdom will be classed as a aetheling? Will there be a difference between Strong and weak claims if that is the case?

I'll try and make it strong claims, if I discover how, and only Saxon (male - if agnatic succession) adults with claims will be awarded the trait in any case. Just as a little opinion boost to enhance their chances in the elections - with the chance of them receiving it as a nickname too.
 

SirDraco

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I'll try and make it strong claims, if I discover how, and only Saxon (male - if agnatic succession) adults with claims will be awarded the trait in any case. Just as a little opinion boost to enhance their chances in the elections - with the chance of them receiving it as a nickname too.

Sounds good. Is there anyway of making it so that Dynasty members of the current King get priority over others without a claim? Also would it still be open to other nobles if no person with the trait is around (aka Harold)?
 

Lysistrata

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Sounds good. Is there anyway of making it so that Dynasty members of the current King get priority over others without a claim? Also would it still be open to other nobles if no person with the trait is around (aka Harold)?

If I can, yes but I'm still having pretty serious difficulties with the fundamental parts, so if it can be done, I will.
 

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Sounds good so far. I'm looking to update the Saxon England mod when the Old Gods comes out, if we haven't been given a decent succession law for it and you have got it working properly, would you allow me to use it for the mod?
 

Lysistrata

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Sounds good so far. I'm looking to update the Saxon England mod when the Old Gods comes out, if we haven't been given a decent succession law for it and you have got it working properly, would you allow me to use it for the mod?
Of course.
 

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I think most, if not all of Harold's sons would still qualify, at least under my conditions, so I don't expect it to change a great deal.

True. I'm always interested in what would have happened if Harold had won at Hastings, to see who would have succeeded him. I'm of the belief that if Harold wanted his sons to succeed him then he would have had to work hard for it. For one, I think, most non Godwinsons would have voted for Eadger and two, in the eyes of the Church most of his sons were bastards.

Though looking at what you said about the trait again, it might be that only the sons born after Harold became King would be eligible for the trait, which would make sense in my book. From what I gather, anyone of the House of Wessex should get the trait because of the dynasty member who is King bit, so Eadger's sons will probably get it.
 

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True. I'm always interested in what would have happened if Harold had won at Hastings, to see who would have succeeded him. I'm of the belief that if Harold wanted his sons to succeed him then he would have had to work hard for it. For one, I think, most non Godwinsons would have voted for Eadger and two, in the eyes of the Church most of his sons were bastards.

Though looking at what you said about the trait again, it might be that only the sons born after Harold became King would be eligible for the trait, which would make sense in my book. From what I gather, anyone of the House of Wessex should get the trait because of the dynasty member who is King bit, so Eadger's sons will probably get it.

I think it'd only be possible for that to apply to current kings. If not, well, Eadgar has a claim nonetheless and to the best of my experience he's often a popular choice in claimant wars against Harold or as a pretender in elective as it is.
 

SirDraco

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I think it'd only be possible for that to apply to current kings. If not, well, Eadgar has a claim nonetheless and to the best of my experience he's often a popular choice in claimant wars against Harold or as a pretender in elective as it is.

Isn't it possible to give Eadger the trait to begin with? That would certainly help if you can.
 

The Kingmaker

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True. I'm always interested in what would have happened if Harold had won at Hastings, to see who would have succeeded him. I'm of the belief that if Harold wanted his sons to succeed him then he would have had to work hard for it. For one, I think, most non Godwinsons would have voted for Eadger and two, in the eyes of the Church most of his sons were bastards.

Though looking at what you said about the trait again, it might be that only the sons born after Harold became King would be eligible for the trait, which would make sense in my book. From what I gather, anyone of the House of Wessex should get the trait because of the dynasty member who is King bit, so Eadger's sons will probably get it.

I started a scenario once based on the premise that Harold lived, trying to rein in the spiral of events so that they all made sense logically and didn't get too extravagant (as can happen so easily with CK).

What I found interesting though was that Harold's sons by Edith Swanneck were all considered legally legitimate by English common law, even though the church didn't consider more danico marriages traditional. They weren't ever bastardized. King Svein of Denmark, Harold's first cousin, had scads of "illegitimate" children with common law wives and concubines, but that didn't stop a good half-dozen of them from succeeding him to the throne.

What I imagine would have happened is that the Godwine family would have absorbed the last vestiges of the Wessex dynasty. Marrying Godwine Haroldson to Margaret is all that would have been needed to secure the dynastic link. Whether Eadgar would have been elected down the line depends on how competent he proved to be as an adult. Since Edward the Confessor had treated him as a sort of pseudo-adopted son, he was still in the care and household of Harold's sister Queen Edith at Winchester. All of this means that Eadgar is sort of Harold's de facto nephew, even though he's not actually closely related by blood. I think Harold was too shrewd to simply murder him off -- his culpability would have been obvious and it would have damaged his reputation. He would either have neutralized him by making him appear weak, or he would have co-opted his legacy by treating him as another son himself. He could easily have married him to one of his daughters (Gytha or Gunnhild) to make a son-in-law and just another part of the family. Thus, even if Eadgar did get elected, any potential heirs he sired would still carry on the Godwine bloodline.

Then again, a lot would be predicated on how Harold's sons felt about Eadgar. I expect that there would be a bigger feud between the children of Harold's two wives after he died with all the earls divided between the two factions -- the children of Edith #1 supported by Harold's powerful brothers and the children of Edith #2 supported by Harold's powerful brothers-in-law. And of course Eadgar stuck in the middle. I really should finish that scenario some day. It'll be epic.

But anyway, to tie this all in to relevancy, I don't think the Aetheling trait itself should necessarily be transferred to non-dynastic members in the absence of a viable heir. It should simply be possible for a powerful noble to win the support of the Witan in the absence of a mature, competent heir (ie. Eadgar was too young and inexperienced to be an effective foil to the Vikings and Normans). The Aetheling trait shouldn't guarantee election, it should just grant prestige and encourage people to respect your claims.
 

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in the eyes of the Church most of his sons were bastards.

While the church didn't like such marriages it wasn't quite in that position (see Scandanavia). Of course, post Norman conquest, the churchmen could be 'encouraged' to take a harsher view with a view to diminishing the legitimacy of the heirs and therefore their claims to William's throne.
 

The Kingmaker

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While the church didn't like such marriages it wasn't quite in that position (see Scandanavia). Of course, post Norman conquest, the churchmen could be 'encouraged' to take a harsher view with a view to diminishing the legitimacy of the heirs and therefore their claims to William's throne.

And even then, Harold's oldest three sons made an abortive bid for the throne with the support of the King of Leinster. Unfortunately for them, they were driven off by William's supporters.
 

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What I found interesting though was that Harold's sons by Edith Swanneck were all considered legally legitimate by English common law, even though the church didn't consider more danico marriages traditional. They weren't ever bastardized. King Svein of Denmark, Harold's first cousin, had scads of "illegitimate" children with common law wives and concubines, but that didn't stop a good half-dozen of them from succeeding him to the throne.

Yeah I was using Bastard for lack of a better word at the time, I was just about to go to bed so words escaped me.

What I imagine would have happened is that the Godwine family would have absorbed the last vestiges of the Wessex dynasty. Marrying Godwine Haroldson to Margaret is all that would have been needed to secure the dynastic link. Whether Eadgar would have been elected down the line depends on how competent he proved to be as an adult. Since Edward the Confessor had treated him as a sort of pseudo-adopted son, he was still in the care and household of Harold's sister Queen Edith at Winchester. All of this means that Eadgar is sort of Harold's de facto nephew, even though he's not actually closely related by blood. I think Harold was too shrewd to simply murder him off -- his culpability would have been obvious and it would have damaged his reputation. He would either have neutralized him by making him appear weak, or he would have co-opted his legacy by treating him as another son himself. He could easily have married him to one of his daughters (Gytha or Gunnhild) to make a son-in-law and just another part of the family. Thus, even if Eadgar did get elected, any potential heirs he sired would still carry on the Godwine bloodline.

I think the main thing to consider is, I don't believe we can really pin point Harold's opinion of Eadger or even Harold's ambition for the Throne. It does make coming up with what may have happened a lot harder.

Then again, a lot would be predicated on how Harold's sons felt about Eadgar. I expect that there would be a bigger feud between the children of Harold's two wives after he died with all the earls divided between the two factions -- the children of Edith #1 supported by Harold's powerful brothers and the children of Edith #2 supported by Harold's powerful brothers-in-law. And of course Eadgar stuck in the middle. I really should finish that scenario some day. It'll be epic.

It does sound epic, in that situation a clever Eadger could use this fighting to his advantage.

But anyway, to tie this all in to relevancy, I don't think the Aetheling trait itself should necessarily be transferred to non-dynastic members in the absence of a viable heir. It should simply be possible for a powerful noble to win the support of the Witan in the absence of a mature, competent heir (ie. Eadgar was too young and inexperienced to be an effective foil to the Vikings and Normans). The Aetheling trait shouldn't guarantee election, it should just grant prestige and encourage people to respect your claims.

I agree. That's why I don't want to see any of Harold's sons from before his coronation with the Aetheling trait. In the 1066 start, only Eadger should have the trait, with any sons Harold has after he becomes King gaining it too.
 

DreadLindwyrm

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Just a thought, William Adelin might just have been the result of a scribe trying to emphasise that William was a prince...

Take the old Atheling title used for the sons and electable relatives of pre-conquest rulers, don't fully understand it, and apply it to your son as a gesture towards the remaining Saxons in the kingdom; misspell it slightly, since rendering Saxon titles in Norman French or Latin always works so well... Bam you have a "unique" byname to distinguish him from any other nobles named William that you might be interacting with.

Thus, William "the fat", William "the tall", William "the brave", and William "the prince" can all be distinguished in casual conversation without having to distinguish them by title.
 

The Kingmaker

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Just a thought, William Adelin might just have been the result of a scribe trying to emphasise that William was a prince...

Take the old Atheling title used for the sons and electable relatives of pre-conquest rulers, don't fully understand it, and apply it to your son as a gesture towards the remaining Saxons in the kingdom; misspell it slightly, since rendering Saxon titles in Norman French or Latin always works so well... Bam you have a "unique" byname to distinguish him from any other nobles named William that you might be interacting with.

Thus, William "the fat", William "the tall", William "the brave", and William "the prince" can all be distinguished in casual conversation without having to distinguish them by title.

I certainly grant that something like that may be possible, but I tend to doubt it. Henry I knew exactly what he was doing when he married Edith-Matilda, daughter of Margaret, so I suspect that he made it patently clear that his children were now "legitimate heirs" of the old bloodline. Why work so hard to obtain such a marriage if you're not going to take full advantage of it? William's sons knew their own legitimacy was on shaky grounds. They were the sons of a bastard conqueror with no real blood-claim to the throne and they had already fought what amounted to an internecine succession war with each other over who inherited what.
 

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I certainly grant that something like that may be possible, but I tend to doubt it. Henry I knew exactly what he was doing when he married Edith-Matilda, daughter of Margaret, so I suspect that he made it patently clear that his children were now "legitimate heirs" of the old bloodline. Why work so hard to obtain such a marriage if you're not going to take full advantage of it? William's sons knew their own legitimacy was on shaky grounds. They were the sons of a bastard conqueror with no real blood-claim to the throne and they had already fought what amounted to an internecine succession war with each other over who inherited what.

I agree, if William Adelin had become King, he would have effectively united the bloodlines. It would have given the House of Normandy a more legitimate claim and could have united the Saxons and Normans quicker that it did.
 

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I agree, if William Adelin had become King, he would have effectively united the bloodlines. It would have given the House of Normandy a more legitimate claim and could have united the Saxons and Normans quicker that it did.

That'd actually make for a really interesting scenario. "William III" might have been able to unite the people behind him as aetheling. On the other hand, he might have just made for a third faction in the civil war between Matilda and Stephen. :p