Anglo-Saxon Succession?

[riadach]

Re: the High King, that could be a good fix. I'd add that some claims on the title should be given to his rivals in order to simulate the constant struggling over the High Kingship that went on for ages.

For the 867 start only his fellow Uí Néill would have claims, i.e. Flann Sínna of Kildare and Maeldoraidh of Tyrconnell. These are all of the same dynasty, though distance branches, so Tanistry should be fun. I'd also combine all the Eoghanacht dynasties in the south, though I don't feel Eoghanacht Airthir Cliach should hold Thomond, rather it should be an early Dál gCais, Lachtna.

 

[The Kingmaker]

For the 867 start only his fellow Uí Néill would have claims, i.e. Flann Sínna of Kildare and Maeldoraidh of Tyrconnell. This are all of the same dynasty, though distance branches, so Tanistry should be fun. I'd also combine all the Eoghanacht dynasties in the south, though I don't feel Eoghanacht Airthir Cliach should hold Thomond, rather it should be an early Dál gCais, Lachtna.

Yes, the Ui Neill still had a hold on the HK in 867. I was thinking more of the 1066 start, where poor Diarmait mac Mael naMbo is beset on all sides.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Had another idea. What if we gave the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms tanistry in 867 and simply modded the Anglo-Saxon term for "Tanist" to "Ætheling?" How would that work?

(I mean of course in addition to all the other ventures, including the unique aetheling trait.)

Also, here's another thing I noticed was missing. Osberht, the deposed king of Northumbria, is not in the game. When Ragnar's sons invaded, Osberht and his brother Aella were fighting over the kingship. Aella had deposed Osberht and stolen his throne, and Osberht was back for revenge. They were in the midst of a civil war when the Vikings arrived. The two brothers joined together to try to defeat the Danes, but they were still both defeated and killed.

 

[Zolotaya]

... Also, here's another thing I noticed was missing. Osberht, the deposed king of Northumbria, is not in the game. When Ragnar's sons invaded, Osberht and his brother Aella were fighting over the kingship. Aella had deposed Osberht and stolen his throne, and Osberht was back for revenge. They were in the midst of a civil war when the Vikings arrived. The two brothers joined together to try to defeat the Danes, but they were still both defeated and killed.

This and a few other left out details should be fleshed out.

 

[Thure]

Also, here's another thing I noticed was missing. Osberht, the deposed king of Northumbria, is not in the game. When Ragnar's sons invaded, Osberht and his brother Aella were fighting over the kingship. Aella had deposed Osberht and stolen his throne, and Osberht was back for revenge. They were in the midst of a civil war when the Vikings arrived. The two brothers joined together to try to defeat the Danes, but they were still both defeated and killed.

Suggest it in the bug forum... Paradox allways add many characters in the patches.

 

[riadach]

Yes, the Ui Neill still had a hold on the HK in 867. I was thinking more of the 1066 start, where poor Diarmait mac Mael naMbo is beset on all sides.

Indeed, he doesn't even have a ducal title if I recall. The most ridiculous aspect of it is that he personally installed his son in Dublin, yet said son is not subject to him. A similar probably occurs with Domnall Ua Briain in 1096, who is the King of Munster's son, yet despite being depicted as a child, is completed independent. There should also be a Norse ruler of Dublin in 1072, subject to Toirdhealbhach Ua Briain, King of Munster, by the name of Gofraidh. He is then replaced by Toirdhealbhach's son and eventual heir, Muircheartach in 1075.

Muircheartach's brother's son, Domnall mac Taidhg Ua Briain is also king of the Isles, or at least regent, from 1112-1114.

And can we please have the count of Tyrone as Duke of Ulster, with Tyrconnell under his control. The Kings of Aileach were quite formidable at this time, indeed often the major obstacle to a high-kingship without opposition.

 

[The Kingmaker]

SirDraco and I have been working on updating his excellent Anglo-Saxon mod for The Old Gods. By that, I mean he's doing all the grunt work while I offer suggestions, historical consulting and a little bit of public relations.

As he is very busy with the actual modding, he's asked me to show some of his efforts here.

Here's a couple screenies:

An attempt at getting some de jure duchies for a Saxon victory scenario that would actually simulate reasonable behavior on the part of the Saxon earls.

A screenshot featuring some of the new de facto boundaries in 1066 and some new CoAs.

And finally, here's a bit of code featuring updated Saxon titles and earldoms:

#CODE;ENGLISH;FRENCH;GERMAN;;SPANISH;;;;;;;;;x
duke_saxon;Earl;Earl;Earl;;Earl;;;;;;;;;x
count_saxon;Ealdorman;Comte;Graf;;Conde;;;;;;;;;x
baron_saxon;Thegn;Baron;Baron;;Barón;;;;;;;;;x
duke_saxon_female;Lady;Duchesse;Herzogin;;Duquesa;;;;;;;;;x
count_saxon_female;Lady;Comtesse;Gräfin;;Condesa;;;;;;;;;x
baron_saxon_female;Lady;Baronne;Baroness;;Baronesa;;;;;;;;;x
duke_title_ruler_consort_female_saxon;Lady;Duchesse;Herzogin;;Duquesa;;;;;;;;;x
count_title_ruler_consort_female_saxon;Lady;Duchesse;Herzogin;;Duquesa;;;;;;;;;x
baron_title_ruler_consort_female_saxon;Lady;Duchesse;Herzogin;;Duquesa;;;;;;;;;x
duke_title_ruler_consort_male_saxon;Earl;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
count_title_ruler_consort_male_saxon;Earl;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
baron_title_ruler_consort_male_saxon;Þegn;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
king_title_ruler_consort_male_saxon;Ætheling;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
duke_title_ruler_female_saxon;Lady;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
count_title_ruler_female_saxon;Lady;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
baron_title_ruler_saxon;Lady;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
title_prince_saxon;Ætheling;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
title_prince_female_saxon;Lady;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
duchy_of_saxon;Earldom of;Duché de;Herzogtum von;;Ducado de;;;;;;;;;x
county_of_saxon;Shire of;Comté de;Grafschaft von;;Condado de;;;;;;;;;x
barony_of_saxon;Burh of;Baronnie de;Baronie von;;Baronía de;;;;;;;;;x
city_count_saxon;Shire-Reeve;Seigneur-maire;Oberbürgermeister;;Alcalde Mayor;;;;;;;;;x
city_baron_saxon;Reeve;Maire;Bürgermeister;;Isla Mayor;;;;;;;;;x
city_barony_of_saxon;Town of;Ville de;Stadt;;Ciudad de;;;;;;;;;x
city_county_of_saxon;City of;Grande cité de;Großstadt;;Gran ciudad de;;;;;;;;;x
opinion_granted_duchy_saxon;Granted an Earldom;M’a offert un duché;Gewährte ein Herzogtum;;Concedido un ducado;;;;;;;;;x
DE_JURE_DUCHY__SAXON_DESC;The §Y$PROVINCE$§W is traditionally considered a part of the §Y$EARLDOM$§W. ;La province de §Y$PROVINCE$§W fait traditionnellement partie du duché de §Y$DUCHY$§W. ;Die §Y$PROVINZ$§W wird traditionell als Teil des §Y$DUCHY$§W angesehen. ;;La provincia de §Y$PROVINCE$§W se considera, por tradición, parte del ducado de §Y$DUCHY$§W.;;;;;;;;;x
DE_JURE_DUCHY_SAXON_DESC_NO_HOLDER;Currently, this earldom is held by no one.;Actuellement, ce duché n’est détenu par personne.;Momentan ist dieses Herzogtum in niemandes Besitz.;;Este ducado no tiene propietario en estos momentos.;;;;;;;;;x
DE_JURE_DUCHY-SAXON_DESC_HOLDER_1;§Y$EARL$§W is the current earl, and also de facto controller of §Y$PROVINCE$§W.;§Y$DUKE$§W est l’actuel duc et contrôle, de facto, la province de §Y$PROVINCE$§W.;§Y$DUKE$§W ist der derzeitige Herzog und kontrolliert auch de facto §Y$PROVINZ$§W.;;§Y$DUKE$§W es el duque actual y dirigente de facto de §Y$PROVINCE$§W.;;;;;;;;;x
DE_JURE_DUCHY_SAXON_DESC_HOLDER_2;§Y$EARL$§W is the current earl, who will strive to regain actual control of §Y$PROVINCE$§W.;§Y$DUKE$§W est l’actuel duc et se battra pour reprendre le contrôle de la province de §Y$PROVINCE$§W.;§Y$DUKE$§W ist der derzeitige Herzog, der sich bemüht, die Kontrolle über §Y$PROVINZ$§W wiederzuerlangen.;;§Y$DUKE$§W es el duque actual, que intentará retomar el control de §Y$PROVINCE$§W.;;;;;;;;;x
duke_saxon_title_ruler_consort;Earl;Duc;Herzog;;Duque;;;;;;;;;x
TRIGGER_COUNTY_SAXON;Shire;Comté;Grafschaft;;Condado;;;;;;;;;x
TRIGGER_DUCHY_SAXON;Earldom;Duché;Herzogtum;;Ducado;;;;;;;;;x
BM_A_NEW_KING;A New Saxon King;La troisième croisade;Der Dritte Kreuzzug;;La Tercera Cruzada;;;;;;;;;x
BM_A_NEW_KING_DESC;Eadweard the Confessor, King of England, has died and left no clear heir.  William, Duke of Normandy, and Harald, King of Norway, both claim the throne.  The Witan meets to select a new king.  Mindful of the looming foreign threats, they by-pass the King's young grand-nephew, Eadgar Ætheling, and instead crown Harold Godwinson, Earl of Wessex and the most powerful of the Saxon lords.  Harold inherits a kingdom riven with dissent and threatened with invasion.  Can he defend his crown?;Jérusalem est aux mains des forces du grand infidèle, Saladin, mais Henri II d’Angleterre, Philippe II de France et Frédéric 'Barberousse' du Saint Empire romain germanique ont mis fin aux querelles qui les opposaient pour unir leurs forces contre les Maures au cours de la plus puissante des croisades... Deus Vult !;Jerusalem ist den Truppen Saladins, des großen Ungläubigen, anheimgefallen, aber Heinrich II. von England, Philip II. von Frankreich und der Kaiser des Heiligen Römischen Reiches, Friedrich 'Barbarossa' haben wagemutig ihre kleinlichen Zankereien beigelegt und sind bereit, mit dem bis dato gewaltigsten Kreuzzug gegen den Mohr zu Felde zu ziehen ... Deus Vult!;;Jerusalén ha caído ante las fuerzas del gran infiel Saladino, pero Enrique II de Inglaterra, Felipe II de Francia y el emperador del Sacro Imperio Romano Federico 'Barbarroja' han puesto fin, en el nombre de la justicia, a sus disputas y se preparan para marchar contra los moros en la cruzada más importante hasta la fecha... ¡Deus vult!;;;;;;;;;x
d_mercia;Mercia;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
d_northumberland;Northumbria;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
d_norfolk;East Anglia;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
d_bedford;Huntingdon;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
d_canterbury;Kent;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
d_somerset;Wessex;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
d_lancaster;Cumbria;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
d_hereford;Hereford;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
d_cornwall;Cornwall;;;;;;;;;;;;;x

Bear in mind that these are all unfinished work-in-progress examples and may not represent the final mod.

This mod will include various fixes and tweaks for realms in the British Isles (especially the Saxons) as well as some attempts at providing greater historical accuracy.

 

[Galle]

I've made a new thread for discussing improvements we want implemented in vanilla, since I doubt Paradox is ever going to see this one. Hopefully we can keep this one alive that somebody will notice.

I guess this is now a mod thread, by moderator fiat.

 

[Alratan]

Given that we don't have cultural CoAs (although hopefully it'll come), I'm quite tempted to modify the England title. Make k_england use the wyvern flag and then make a new title, k_norman_england, use the current flag. Then, add a special condition to the invasion cb (or add a new one especially for William) such that when England is invaded, it swaps k_england's history etc. for k_norman_england and makes k_england inactive. Then, change the history so that from William onwards, there is k_norman_england instead of the normal k_england. Not sure if it is worth the trouble, but it does irk me that a Saxon England in the 9th/10th century would use the three lions.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Well, then, time for me to get to work, I suppose.

EDIT: Making some progress on the visual side of things.

(please note that this is still not a mod thread - we really do want Paradox to fix this in vanilla at the first possible opportunity)

How did you accomplish this, Galle? Did you just change saxongfx to norsegfx?

If possible, I think ultimately the Saxons should have the Celtic facepack (once it's released) and both Saxons and Celts should have the wooden castle and city that the Norse have, minus the Stavkirke (Norse wooden church).

 

[The Kingmaker]

Here's some more progress by SirDraco.

A little bit of experimentation with combining Saxon and Norse faces, and look at that Wessex Wyvern!

 

[Sleight of Hand]

For what it's worth, I've requested many of the things you're trying to accomplish -- such as Norse holding graphics and unit sprites -- but they've all been rejected by the devs, so I just gave up.

 

[Galle]

Here's some more progress by SirDraco.

A little bit of experimentation with combining Saxon and Norse faces, and look at that Wessex Wyvern!

My toying with things has convinced me that the best face combination for Saxons is Western beards, but Norse everything else. The Norse bears are too full-faced, whereas contemporary depictions of Alfred (on coinage, mostly) seem to suggest a goattee, or possibly even that he was clean-shaven.

Similarly, my stance is that the Saxons should use Norse graphics for their castles and towns, but standard Western graphics for temples, to represent stone abbeys and the like. Here's what that looks like in practice:

And the DNA/properties I used for Alfred. This has the bonus property that that goattee develops into a slightly-forked beard, which is a 19th century depiction but still kind of iconic for him:

	dna="dggdfoaagbu"
	properties="0e00c"

 

[Lysistrata]

I've already been using the titles in my mod, but I'm really not a portrait artist, as much as I wish I was. I've got a bit planned for the Saxons, a somewhat detailed list is on my mod's thread.

 

[zonkie]

Glad to see you guys working on the Saxon England mod! I have a question though, Is the Kingdom of Wessex a duchy? So you can still unite England under the wyvern flag?

 

[The Kingmaker]

Glad to see you guys working on the Saxon England mod! I have a question though, Is the Kingdom of Wessex a duchy? So you can still unite England under the wyvern flag?

Wessex is a petty kingdom when independent and a duchy when vassalized. Both Wessex and England have a wyvern flag as it stands right now in the mod. Currently Wessex has a gold wyvern and England has a white one.

 

[gorillacakes]

For what it's worth, I've requested many of the things you're trying to accomplish -- such as Norse holding graphics and unit sprites -- but they've all been rejected by the devs, so I just gave up.

Do you think your Saxon sprite fix will work with The Old Gods Sleight?

As for graphics, Shaytana's saxon helmets in BLC look fantastic. It was still compatible with the last patch but I'm not sure now.

 

[Calgacus]

The Scots need Mormaers.

Yep.

For the 867 start only his fellow Uí Néill would have claims, i.e. Flann Sínna of Kildare and Maeldoraidh of Tyrconnell. This are all of the same dynasty, though distance branches, so Tanistry should be fun. I'd also combine all the Eoghanacht dynasties in the south, though I don't feel Eoghanacht Airthir Cliach should hold Thomond, rather it should be an early Dál gCais, Lachtna.

It's one thing believing that the Cenel Conaill are real Uí Neill, but it's another believing that the Uí Mail Doraid were. The genealogies of his family (and the Uí Canannain) are pretty hard to believe, though I suppose what matters is whether or not people in the 9th century believed in the link.

 

[Galle]

How did you accomplish this, Galle? Did you just change saxongfx to norsegfx?

If possible, I think ultimately the Saxons should have the Celtic facepack (once it's released) and both Saxons and Celts should have the wooden castle and city that the Norse have, minus the Stavkirke (Norse wooden church).

Ah, right, I should probably have responded to this!

For the portraits, I defined new saxongfx portraits that used mostly norsegfx elements, with the exception of the beards. For the holding graphics, I did basically what you suggested - replaced the saxongfx castle and city images with the norsegfx ones, while leaving the temple images intact to represent stone abbeys.

 

[SirDraco]

Ah, right, I should probably have responded to this!

For the portraits, I defined new saxongfx portraits that used mostly norsegfx elements, with the exception of the beards. For the holding graphics, I did basically what you suggested - replaced the saxongfx castle and city images with the norsegfx ones, while leaving the temple images intact to represent stone abbeys.

That's pretty much exactly the same as what I did but I left the western headgear on as well, it felt more right as I'm focusing on 1066 right now.