Anglo-Portuguese Alliance

[SirDraco]

In Hoi III, Countries that were neutral in real life tended to be neutral in the game, with restrictions helping that. Portugal was one such country. But when war broke out, the Portuguese Government said that the Anglo-Portuguese Alliance remained intact, but since the British had not asked for Portuguese assistance, Portugal would remain neutral. This would seem that if the British had called for their help then Portugal would have joined the Allies. The British didn't because they feared that if they did then that would drive Spain to join the Axis. They did ask for, and received, use of navel bases however.

As Hoi IV is going for a more sandbox, less forced history approach, I think there should be a decision for the British to call upon the Alliance once war broke out. Either by requesting the use of bases, as they did historically, or even asking for full on assistance. If Portugal does accept and join the Allies, then it would increase the chance of Spain joining the Axis. This would lead to some interesting alternatives for fighting the war.

The British should at least be able to get access to bases in the Azores.

 

[SFSLovenought]

Of course, that means the Battle of the Atlantic needs to be done better, otherwise the Azores will be useless.

 

[Col.HoganGer90]

I think that's a nice idea for a small event chain. Hopefully, many more like that are introduced to Hoi IV, because they are what really makes the gameplay immersing to me.

 

[Big Nev]

I think you're forgetting about the Portuguese colonies in Asia that would have been lost to Japan. For the aid that Portugal could have offered the Allies, loosing their Far East territories wouldn't heave been worth it. This is, I think, why Britain didn't call on Portugal to join formally. They gave what assistance they could, even broke international law and Germany protested furiously but could do nothing about it because, if Germany had declared war on Portugal, that would have pushed Spain in to the Allies.

I my opinion.

 

[Skirnir]

That would be cool. But would it have caused spain to join the axis? What do they care if portugal goes to war? If preassured by germany wouldn't they just rather have given military access like sweden did?

 

[DPKdebator]

It probably depends on how Portugal reacts to Spain's reaction, If they try and work it out, no, but if they instead put troops on the border, maybe.

 

[Darkath]

There's no need for events, just have them start as allied to UK from 1936, and wether AI Portugal is called to arms or not should depend on how the war in spain is going or has ended.

 

[FOARP]

As Hoi IV is going for a more sandbox, less forced history approach, I think there should be a decision for the British to call upon the Alliance once war broke out.

The kind of event-chain you're talking about IS an example of forced history.

 

[aruon]

The kind of event-chain you're talking about IS an example of forced history.

well there could be a 50/50 chance.

 

[Gamer_1745]

So goes Spain, So goes Portugal.

From my research Salazar really wanted to stay out of the war, but would have fallowed Spain's lead. He knew they could not defend the home territory if Spain went Axis. I really don't think Salazar would have joined the Allies.

 

[SirDraco]

The kind of event-chain you're talking about IS an example of forced history.

Not really as forced history would be, Portugal being officially neutral but allowing the use of their navel bases to the allies. This decision gives more options, you can choose not to call upon the Alliance, to only request use of bases, or to full on call them in, how is that forced?

That would be cool. But would it have caused spain to join the axis? What do they care if portugal goes to war? If preassured by germany wouldn't they just rather have given military access like sweden did?

It seemed to be one of the main fears. By not calling in Portugal, it kept the Iberian Peninsula neutral. Even Germany just having military access through Spain would be enough to make them think twice, I suppose.

I think you're forgetting about the Portuguese colonies in Asia that would have been lost to Japan. For the aid that Portugal could have offered the Allies, loosing their Far East territories wouldn't heave been worth it. This is, I think, why Britain didn't call on Portugal to join formally. They gave what assistance they could, even broke international law and Germany protested furiously but could do nothing about it because, if Germany had declared war on Portugal, that would have pushed Spain in to the Allies.

I my opinion.

I'm not forgetting and I'm not saying that in real life it was a good idea to call them in, the British were right not to call Portugal into the war. That said, it would be nice to have the option to play things differently. In my view, if something is a plausible option that could have happened then it should be in the game in some way.

 

[Beagá]

Not really as forced history would be, Portugal being officially neutral but allowing the use of their navel bases to the allies. This decision gives more options, you can choose not to call upon the Alliance, to only request use of bases, or to full on call them in, how is that forced?

.

His point was that calling Portugal to all out war as na allied member, just because it started allied (just like France) is a bit forced. Portugal would join depending on a lot of factors, which SHOULD be present, else things get silly.

 

[SirDraco]

His point was that calling Portugal to all out war as na allied member, just because it started allied (just like France) is a bit forced. Portugal would join depending on a lot of factors, which SHOULD be present, else things get silly.

I don't think it should be guaranteed that they would join all out war, you would still need to please them etc. I just think there should be the option to call upon a real life alliance that exists, as was done during the war to acquire military bases etc. So that it wouldn't be a forced, call it and get bases event/decision, I gave the option to take it further and request fall on military assistance if you chose to but that would come down to other factors as well.

 

[Beagá]

No problem. As long as it isn´t just "Call Ally" option and Portugal joins in 1940, it´s all fine by me. Spain´s situation is important as well.

 

[SirDraco]

No problem. As long as it isn´t just "Call Ally" option and Portugal joins in 1940, it´s all fine by me. Spain´s situation is important as well.

It shouldn't be just a simple "CAll Ally" option, in fact that kind of option doesn't really work in this kind of game. I think the Anglo-Portuguese Alliance could be used as a new generic alliance system, outside of factions. Alliances should be used for more than just military assistance, faction members should be able to use them to get privileges from a country while keeping them neutral, as was the case with the Anglo-Portuguese Alliance. With a bit of work, you could get them to join your faction but in some cases it would be better to keep your ally neutral with benefits.

 

[Darkath]

No problem. As long as it isn´t just "Call Ally" option and Portugal joins in 1940, it´s all fine by me. Spain´s situation is important as well.

It they something like EU4 call to arms system with different values they might be able to use modifiers like "spain is at war -1000", "spain is fascist -1000" or "spain is in the axis -1000"

I think each country should have a set of specific paramaters deciding if they want to join the war or not, but having everything event based is kinda boring.

 

[FOARP]

well there could be a 50/50 chance.

:huh:

Yeah, that doesn't make things much better. You're still just determining what happens rather than allowing things to emerge from game-play.

 

[GunthiHrod]

It they something like EU4 call to arms system with different values they might be able to use modifiers like "spain is at war -1000", "spain is fascist -1000" or "spain is in the axis -1000"

I think each country should have a set of specific paramaters deciding if they want to join the war or not, but having everything event based is kinda boring.

I would like that may work like EUIV

Portugal, did lost East-Timor in the WWII http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Timor (but didn't lost Macau).

The Iberian Pact in WWII
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Pact

 

[aruon]

actually guys, i just looked at the Portugal in WWII wiki, and i think that it's more likely that Portugal wouldn't have joined the war under any (aggressive) circumstances. António de Oliveira Salazar and the Estado Novo are often regarded as pro-fascist. and they had supported nationalist Spain in the SCW.

however the Nazis did have Operation Isabella, which would've forced Portugal into the allies once its execution had begun after the fall of the soviet union.

 

[Dalwin]

I totally agree that a more sandbox approach to the game should allow for more flexibility in forming ahistorical alliances. In fact this was what I liked best about the often maligned old political triangle.

I remember playing one game as Germany where, just to see what happened, I concentrated my prewar efforts on forming the biggest alliance that I could. This included having a smaller military buildup so I could keep consumer goods production high. I also played that game with the self imposed restriction that no German troops would leave German soil (air and naval units excluded). It was funny watching all my AI controlled minor allies work their way to a Bitter Peace.