Upkeep doesn't matter, pops matter. Pearl Divers are less pop-efficient than Artisans.
Angler Banger
- Thread starter evilcat
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Pearl Divers aren't competing with Artisans pop-for-pop. Pearl Divers are competing with Technicians district-for-district.
Pearl Diver pop-efficiency comes from the pop efficiency comparison of 2 Angler farm districts with 4 pops versus 1 farm district/1 technician district of a non-angler build.
Pearl Divers can kinda compete with merchant actually. A merchant is 12 trade which is 6 energy and 3 CE with consumer policy. A pearl and angler is 2 energy less if you keep wealth policy (with 8 food) and they can scale with tech and easier to spam. Your farm planet also doubles as a factory planet without designating it as a factory world.
Hydroponic building has 1 angler which produces more than a farmer per pop so you can stack it in trade habitats.
I feel like its a build that requires some setup time. Which basically mean its not meta since you can't win in 50 years.
This is from the definition of the job in the game files:
Code:
resources = {
category = planet_artisans
produces = {
consumer_goods = 3
}
upkeep = {
food = 2
minerals = 2
}
}From Civilian Fabricators:
Code:
planet_modifier = {
planet_artisans_consumer_goods_produces_add = 1
planet_artisans_minerals_upkeep_add = 1
}Also fun note - check the sloppy copy/paste job I just noticed in the Pearl Diver job weights:
Code:
pearl_diver = {
[...]
weight = {
weight = @specialist_job_weight
modifier = {
factor = 2
is_enslaved = yes
has_slavery_type = { type = slavery_indentured }
}
modifier = {
factor = 0.1
can_take_servant_job = yes
}
modifier = {
factor = 5
has_job = artisan
}
modifier = {
factor = 10
has_job = artisan
OR = {
has_trait = trait_robust
has_trait = trait_robot_efficient_processors
}
}
}- 2
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Those conditions are implicitly AND'd together, so this more means that if your artisans are robust or have efficient processers, they'll switch like crazy, while non-artisans with those traits won't really care. This is a definite bug.
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You can. It should be listed like the other flat resource bonuses under the base production values.
Update: catalytic processing is pretty much required. Until I got there I noticed I was really guzzling minerals due to the mineral upkeep of pearl divers. Once I got catalytic processing, boom suddenly everything changed. I suddenly had an explosive potential for production. And the saved minerals went into restoring a relic world into an ecu, just in time to start using my hundreds of food a month and turning it into alloys. Also, I would highly recommend terraforming everything but gaia worlds into ocean, and get the hydrocentric ascenscion as soon as possible.
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Further issues with the Merchant spam comparison is that it comes with 4 costs not factored in- the building slot shortage, the energy fungability soft cap of monthly market trades, the upkeep, and the Aquatic planet shortage. It's not that it's not useful, but rather that it's useful for different thing (and- in the context of an Aquatics build- different planetary roles).
The building slot shortage is the most important, because science labs- the most CG-hungry thing in the game- are mutually exclusive with your merchant-providing commercial zones. They cost the same minerals and time the same building slot. Merchant revenue- as good as it is- can't buy research, so you need those building slots to be research labs to actually raise your research.
Which entails the need for upkeep support, which needs energy and CG, which Pearl Divers and Anglers together do better than other builds in the early into mid-game. If you replace a normal empire's farmer+generator district with two angler districts, a Thrifty Angler on the homeworld who buys its own minerals on the market is going to basically be the same food, but -6 energy/+6 CG... while still producing 6 net energy. IE, four support pops are providing all the food, energy, and CG you'd normally need at least 6 pops to provide.
This is why Pearl Divers aren't a relevant comparison to Merchants- Pearl Divers are fundamentally a support role to employ more specialists, but Merchants are a Ruler you can build when you're choosing not to employ specialists.
Which has value, to be clear, but that value has diminishing returns in terms of substituting for a worker economy, which is really only cost-efficient for minerals, and only to an early-game limit that's quickly reached.
The market puts miners and food at a base value of 1 energy, with a 30% market fee. The main source of early-game income, technician, has base value 6. The base farmer has 5- buying 5 food at 30% markup is 6.5, so you're generally just better employing the farmer. Miners have base 4, or 5.2 off the market, so you're better off buying minerals instead of mining on the homeworld. Merchants are convenient substitutes for workers because 1 12-value merchant can cover 2 worker jobs off the market in normal empires.
But Anglers are already producing 10 food/2 trade value even on the homeworld, so that's basically a wash, especially as building slot upkeep factors in. Minerals still apply.
But monthly trade values only reset each month if you limit to about 50 units of minerals (or food), meaning 65 energy a month. After the first 65 energy's worth of purchases, you want miners. Which is fine, and Merchants are indeed very good for getting to that 65 income stream very fast. You can 'soft max' your mineral income very quickly, and 5 merchants substituting the worth of 10 homeworld miners and subsidizing the artisans CG production is a useful early-game pop substitution, even if you are burning 4 building slots to do so.
But Pearl divers already substitute the miners, and subsidize their own CG production. Their own trade value covers their own mineral upkeep on the market- meaning they don't need the external miner pop supporting them or external energy workers subsidizing them. The only remaining need for minerals is building buildings and alloys, and not even alloys if you go with Catalytic Converter.
With the mineral upkeep for CG not needed, Merchants have a smaller slice of the mineral pie they can support before the soft cap. And with Anglers being competitive on the food, that leads them to being less and less relevant for purchasing on the market. Minerals upkeep is self-covering on the CG front/food is uncompetitive/CG is unnecessary/alloys are... questionable, the value of Merchants as an early-game resource economy substitute are diminished.
Upkeep is another issue a Merchant-to-Angler comparison is missing.
If you're spamming marketplaces, you are spamming city districts. Both of these come with 2 energy upkeep each. You pointed out that the Angler district pair is already just 2 energy shy with a massive food surplus, but upkeep would move that to a 3-energy deficit in comparison to the upkeep.
To which someone might reply 'but pop efficiency!' To which we return 'building slot efficiency!', and what you are using your limited building slots for. If you are employing a Merchant, you are choosing not to employ CG-hungry specialists with the same building slot. The Specialist-buildings need support that a Merchant can not be supporting them in the same slot.
Then there's the Aquatic conversion consideration, and what that means for Merchant spam.
Aquatic is a trait that gives 10% worker bonuses and +20% habitability to your same-biome ocean worlds, but -20% to 66% of the worlds that make up your out-biomes (cold/dry). Higher habitability means higher growth, worker output, and amenity efficiency. Lower habitability means otherwise. One of the only jobs not affected by stability- for good and ill- are Trade and Merchant jobs.
Aside from the difference in roles and responsibilities (feeding specialists vs replacing specialist buildings), Merchants and Pearl Divers shouldn't even be on the same planet.
This is a non-numeric so-what of a major strategic shift: with the Aquatic perk your worker-worlds are very limited. Anglers and Pearl Divers can only be on 1/3rd of them in the first place, and miners and anglers are only getting to be at 60% efficiency on 2/9th of them. Your guaranteed worlds are very high-value worker centers not just because the Aquatic perk gives worker traits on them, but because they may be your only place to put worker jobs efficiently until robots come online.
This also applies to your science and unity specialists. Habitability affects their output; 60% continental/tropical worlds are a 20% debuff. 20% habitability worlds are a 40% debuff. And that's without the sharper amenity fall-off reducing staiblity more per pop..
You know what job habitability doesn't affect though? Which produces it's own and excess amenities? Merchants.
Merchants should be going to the low-habitability worlds where Pearl Divers aren't even an option, not competing for jobs on the most high-value building spaces in the empire. The inner core needs CG without buildings to support CG-using buildings, and workers supporting the specialist roles while making the most of their worker bonuses and in-colony proximity.
But, of course, someone who tries to compare Merchants to Pearl Divers directly wouldn't see that.
Meta should be winning in 30 years, honestly- or getting their first conquests so they can proceed to snowball- so tech rushing isn't really a meta anyway. As a specialist-supporting economy civic, Angler isn't there, since you generally won't even want to build alloy production until your second (or third!) colony.
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3 Farmers produce 18 food. 1 Artisan produces 6 CGs and costs 6 minerals.
Total output of 12 base resources and 6 CGs for 3 pops.
2 Anglers produces 16 food + 4 trade for 14 base resources, 2 pearl divers cost 8 base resources and produce 4 base resources and 6 CGs.
Total output of 10 base resources and 6 CGs for 3 pops.
Looks pretty awful. We also have to consider that we can't actually sustain this pop ratio with anglers without either massive overproduction of Food or underproduction of CGs, while the farmers can be tuned down as needed. We also have to take into consideration that trade multipliers are far worse than food/mineral, so over time the farmer/Artisan will produce much more efficiently. And we paid a civic slot for this. You can make an argument that 1 mineral != 1 energy != 1 food != 1 trade though, but it's still really hard to see how we could possibly be gaining enough value to be worth a civic
Total output of 12 base resources and 6 CGs for 3 pops.
2 Anglers produces 16 food + 4 trade for 14 base resources, 2 pearl divers cost 8 base resources and produce 4 base resources and 6 CGs.
Total output of 10 base resources and 6 CGs for 3 pops.
Looks pretty awful. We also have to consider that we can't actually sustain this pop ratio with anglers without either massive overproduction of Food or underproduction of CGs, while the farmers can be tuned down as needed. We also have to take into consideration that trade multipliers are far worse than food/mineral, so over time the farmer/Artisan will produce much more efficiently. And we paid a civic slot for this. You can make an argument that 1 mineral != 1 energy != 1 food != 1 trade though, but it's still really hard to see how we could possibly be gaining enough value to be worth a civic
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This resume all. I was going to test an Ocean Paradise build with Inward Perfection and the Angler Civic (removing Meritocracy) and in the future use Catalytic Processing but maths... Yeah no.
I will stay with Remnants / IP + Meritocracy. It is much more versatile and easy to use because you don't have to play with the hard downsides.
So Aquatic... RP + Skin yes. Min / Max ? Nope. Not at the moment.
Important notes:
Upgrade buildings exist, so farmers can produce 6 or 7 or 8 food. Same with artisan, and miners. 2nd tier cost rare resource, but +1 version is just building slot.
It is generally easier to spec planet in 1 thing, there will always be that one planet with 15 farms and upgrade procesing producing like 600 food. You even can set special specie and robot type for farming planet.
Miners 4minerals Technicans/Farmers 6 energy/food. So miners are always on demand. Buying minerals to some degree is always an option.
Consumer benefit is always an option, from reasons it bypass mineral and artisan output.
TV isnt automatic! There is piracy, and you need to build starbase or wormholes to transport it. Early game it may be the issue.
You can reduce number of divers, but that would require extra districts which is limited resource
You get that 1tv per pop which is nice, but there are many drawbacks.
Upgrade buildings exist, so farmers can produce 6 or 7 or 8 food. Same with artisan, and miners. 2nd tier cost rare resource, but +1 version is just building slot.
It is generally easier to spec planet in 1 thing, there will always be that one planet with 15 farms and upgrade procesing producing like 600 food. You even can set special specie and robot type for farming planet.
Miners 4minerals Technicans/Farmers 6 energy/food. So miners are always on demand. Buying minerals to some degree is always an option.
Consumer benefit is always an option, from reasons it bypass mineral and artisan output.
TV isnt automatic! There is piracy, and you need to build starbase or wormholes to transport it. Early game it may be the issue.
You can reduce number of divers, but that would require extra districts which is limited resource
You get that 1tv per pop which is nice, but there are many drawbacks.
Even if you want to wave the basic resource conversion penalty (30% game start), you forgot your district upkeep consideration, assumed a non-energy trade policy to measure basic resources. You also for got build considerations: all Angler builds will have 10% to Angler jobs as a Civic Requirement for Aquatic, and if you're going Angler build the chances of you not taking thrifty (25% trade value) are nill if you're trying to weigh it as a strategy.
This moves 3 farmers (18 food) and 1 artisan (6 cg - 6 minerals) across 2 farm and 1 industrial district (-4 energy) to 8 base resources and 6 CG.
This moves 2 Anglers (17.6 food + 5 TV) and 2 Pearl Divers (6 CG -4 food -4minerals + 5TV) and 2 districts (-2 energy) to 17.6 basic resources and 6 CG.
If you want to institute a trade policy, sure, but at that point you're already asserting that CG or Unity (or both) gained outweighs the value of the energy itself as a basic resource. It adds value, not takes away, so counting half of trade value for basic resource comparison is invalid.
This consideration is why you take the Catalytic Converter civic, and lean into the fact you don't need minerals on a major scale when you can self-cover the mineral cost of your first 75 CG or so.
Catalytic Converter + Angler Jobs is a more efficient pop upkeep ratio for alloys in the early game than miners-to-alloys, especially since the early-game practical implication of Pearl Divers as a job and Aquatic as a trait is that you can put off alloy plants until after your colonization of guaranteed worlds, while the early-game implication of normal economies is you use the colonies as resource worlds for the homeworld and eat the inefficiency.
On a base/starting level with no modifiers, a miner produces 4 minerals and an alloy worker requires 6. This is is a 3-to-2 pop ratio in that it takes 3 miner pops of base 4 minerals to support 2 alloy jobs.
On a starting level with no non-required modifiers, an Angler produces 8.8 (because Aquatic is required) and a alloy worker requires 9. This is a 2.05-to-2 ratio, almost perfect 1-to-1 upkeep-to-producer ratio.
In the expansion phase, a normal empire is moving miners off the homeworld to the colonies, where they can get the 25% worker bonus but still pay the homeworld alloy inefficiency. These worlds are usually 80% habitability, or a 10% malus to production. Angler-Aquatics will do the inverse- setting the 100% habitaibility colony as a Alloy world fueled by the Homeworld's Angler districts.
Miners (base 4, +25% designation, -10% habitability malus) are producing 4.5 minerals, a +.5 input resource gainsand still paying 6 minerals per alloy. They are now at a 2.6-to-2 ratio, a half-pop saving on before.
Anglers (no change) are still producing 8.8, but now only need to pay 7.2 food, a 1.8 input resource saving. They are not at a 1.6-to-2 ratio, in that in only requires 80% of each upkeep pop's output to fund 1 alloy worker. We have passed the 1-to-1 ratio.
A maximized miner world of base 4 job, 25% colony designation, and +2 to the base thru the upgrade building is 7.5 minerals. The alloy requirement on a designated alloy world is 4.8. This is a .64-to-1 ratio, in that 64% of each miner is supporting 1 producer.
A maximized angler world of base job 8, 10% aquatic (required), 25% colony designation, and +2 thru buildings is 13.75 food. The food requirement for a catalytic alloy world is .65-to-1 ratio, or 65% of each pop.
This is functionally even after a game of being well ahead. Marginally it might be worse, but that would change if you used any worker/authoritarian/slaver bonuses, which as % modifiers would give a larger bonus to larger base numbers (Anglers/Farmers) than miners.
You also have to consider that you're working on an Aquatic trait build, and what that means for off-biome planets.
Aquatics are getting 100% habitability (and 10% buffs) on 1-in-9 planets, and a basic 60% habitability on 2-in-9, but for the other 2/3rds of the normal biomes they're at 20%, and 0% if they take Hydrocentric. That's a -40-50% malus to basically all jobs that don't have flat outputs...
Like trade. In the early game, Trade is- by far- the best resource use for your off-habitability worlds, and only gets better until you can terraform them. Moreover, there is no trade world designation, so once you have robots you can turn your bad worlds into both solid energy producers (merchant spam) and resource extractors (robots).
Meanwhile, your inner core are struggling to pack as many specialists that there really isn't space or planets for dedicated energy or mineral worlds until robots. But with Pearl Divers mitigating the CG mineral needs, and Catalytic mitigating the Alloy mineral needs, your mineral needs are much much much much lower, and your farm-worlds are doubling as soft energy worlds at a point where viable energy worlds are limited outside of trade.
The advantage is the early-game mover advantage and very efficient world utilization of what may only be 3 good-habitability worlds in your empire.
You have a lot of CG and food which can be put to colony ships early. You then have a lot of CG which can be plugged into scientists for early-game teching, and food which funds favorable alloy conversions on a pop-efficiency level. By leveraging trade, you can mitigate the disadvantage of a required Trait, and maximize it's benefits for your early game core. By not wasting guaranteed worlds on all resources, you bring your specialist-maximization economy online sooner.
TL;DR
It's still bad. Catalytic Converter is also bad (arguably worse early game w/ anglers since you need to spam even more farming districts which total up to thousands of wasted minerals) and adding in extra traits as well obviously pumps your numbers up. You're basically comparing an entire race build to a race with zero traits or civics at all. You're also ignore resource bonuses.
It's still bad. Catalytic Converter is also bad (arguably worse early game w/ anglers since you need to spam even more farming districts which total up to thousands of wasted minerals) and adding in extra traits as well obviously pumps your numbers up. You're basically comparing an entire race build to a race with zero traits or civics at all. You're also ignore resource bonuses.
There's no instance in which you want a lot of food and it's worse at producing CGs.
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Living Standards and Pop upkeep also have to be considered. A Pearl Diver costs 0.5 consumer goods per 3 consumer goods produced, whereas an Artisan only costs 0.5 per 6 produced. (this also means that in a full resource comparison, you'd have to consider the extra food upkeep for each Pearl Diver pop)
Artisan: -6 min, +5.5 CG (-8%) with industrial world: -4.8 min, + 5.5CG (+14%)
Pearl Diver: -2 min, + 2.5CG (+25%)
Some estimates:
About 10%~ more efficient at converting Minerals, less then half as efficient at production of CG.
All things being equal, you would require twice the Pops to use 20%~ less minerals and produce 10%~ less.
At base level before Industrial Worlds it instead requires twice the Pops to use 33% less minerals and produce 10% less.
If we also include Artificers:
Artificer: -6min, +6.5 CG (+8%), with industrial world: -4.8 min, +6.5 (+35%)
Having higher then standard Living standards would further increase Pearl Diver's pop inefficiency.
If we assume high living standards (1 consumer good):
Artisan: -6 min, +5CG (-16%), with industrial world: -4.8 min, +5CG(-4%)
Pearl Diver: -2 min, +2CG (+0%)
Artificer: -6 min, +6CG (+0%), with industrial world: -4.8 min, +6CG(+25%)
In case of high living standards you would need 3 Pearl Divers for every Artificer job, and requiring 25% more minerals. That's some very inefficient Pops.
Incidentally, some empire starts give you 3 Industrial Districts. Picking the Angler Civic in such a case reduces the amount of Industrial Districts to only 2.
The viability of using Trade Value on low habitability worlds depends on how easily a trade route can be established, as without one Trade Value has no benefit.
As for Trade World designation, there is one: Urban World gives + 20% to Trade Value.
You seem to be using outdated math. You are using fewer minerals and pops to fund Catalytic Converter-Alloys than you do with any other build. You only need one pop and 200 alloys to meet job upkeep for a Catalytic Technician, and 300 minerals and 1.5 pops for miners. If you want to fund 2 normal alloy workers, that requires a second mineral district and 300 minerals and the same 1.5 pops, compared to 200 minerals and 1.5 pops.
And this is a fair argument if Anglers could actually be a 0 trait build, but it can't- Aquatic is literally required, so it needs to be included, and if you're running a trade build you also need to be factoring in the Trade civic, because it creates strategically significant differences.
Not really- this favors Aquatic. The Aquatic Ocean world shortage synergizes with an alloy world production and a single resource world. The best use for that world to maximize resource value for a Angler would be farm-world, and that in turn goes back to Catalytic.
Pearl Divers are far better at producing CG than the Technicians they are displacing in your upkeep economy.
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I don't think anyone who says Catalytic Processing is bad can be taken seriously. It's groundbreaking, and I'm addicted to it now.
I mean you got rid of the instance. Just because you don't like catalytic converters, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I would say anglers is best if you're gonna use the extra food to make alloys. And clone vats of course.
Artisans are the wrong standard of comparison- technicians are what Pearl Divers should be substituting for in your pop-economy.
Think of it in terms of farm district and generator district substitution: would you rather have 2 technicians/2 farmers, or 2 Anglers and 2 Pearl Divers?
Pearl Diver and Angler districts replacing technician and normal farm districts on the homeworld/base value aren't actually producing any difference in food. The-2 food the Pearl Divers consume is negating the +2 food of the Angler, so in the 2-district comparison food is net even. (It's actually biased in the Aquatic's favor in practice due to the Aquatic trait, which is an extra 1.5-ish food, but let's focus on the Technicians.)
2 technicians is 12 energy. 2 pearl divers- once the food has canceled- represent 8TV (4 from the Anglers), 6 CG, and -2 minerals. The Minerals can be bought off the market for basically 2 TV (would be a favorable profit if Thrifty/stable), leaving 6 TV-energy and 6 CG. Compared to the technician, that's -6 energy/+6 CG.
6 energy instead of 12 is a fair bit less... but if the energy is the need, the CG can be sold for more in the early game. If energy is not the need, then the 6 CG can be used more productively than energy could be.
An empire can maintain a stable energy economy off of Pearl Divers. It can't off of Artisans or Artificers. When you do need energy, you can either go to Technicians or Artificers- but when your energy is already stable, who do you prefer?
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You can repeat that line about technicians all you like, that doesn't make it true.
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