And now, not a single available province in coastal America...

[Emp_Palpatine]

Seriously...

Colonization is already a mess and has been for years. Every free coastal province was colonized by 1600 and by 1650, there were not much more left to grab inland.

And now, it's the contrary! By the mid-1500's, the whole North American coast is occupied by native nations. Of course with their meme megacities and some already westernized (yeah, let's not talk about this right now).

How in gods names are the AI and even players supposed to colonize & expand in North America now? Having D-Day like operations with war and landings in the 1550's?

Sigh....

 

[Miganto]

Send in the marines!

 

[Godd_Howard]

Use submarines and naval bombers. Wait wrong game.
Yeah colonization goes silly either way. I almost feel like they should just make a barrier or impossible for the colonizers to interact with natives and colonize too far inland before a certain tech level. After they fix the natives of course.

 

[Vohen]

Might as well introduce the charter option to colonizers as well at this point.

 

[Vetgirig]

Might as well introduce the charter option to colonizers as well at this point.

Well, if I am not mistaken New York was bought by the Dutch from the natives.

So it was a thing.

 

[StriderLS]

It's nice that natives are actually doing sth in the new world (other than rolling back and waiting to die) but it's just too much and should be balanced out. There were hardly any colonizable provinces on East coast except some bits of Canada before 1.600

In my current game, Iroquis blobed so hard that they had provinces all the way down in Florida, along with a couple of vassals. Lenape and Miqmaq were similar, although much smaller.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Native land is still free real estate in 1.31.

Claiming natives are "westernized" in the 1500s implies a misunderstanding of native mechanics. They are 1000's of monarch points behind, per category, in the 1500s and have tiny economies compared to player colonizers.

How do players win? Siege down their stuff and take it :/.

 

[RobbieAB]

Native land is still free real estate in 1.31.

Claiming natives are "westernized" in the 1500s implies a misunderstanding of native mechanics. They are 1000's of monarch points behind, per category, in the 1500s and have tiny economies compared to player colonizers.

How do players win? Siege down their stuff and take it :/.

Requiring colonisers to kill the natives and steal their lands upsets the Terra Nullis doctrine followers and forces them to recognise the conquest of the new world was a brutal program of conquest and not all happy little house on the pararie.

 

[Zhetone]

Requiring colonisers to kill the natives and steal their lands upsets the Terra Nullis doctrine followers and forces them to recognise the conquest of the new world was a brutal program of conquest and not all happy little house on the pararie.

sure, you can say that - but that requires an overhaul of colonization mechanics, which hasn't happened nor is planned. the game is built around colonization for Europeans to take land in the new world, so without player intervention you often now see the AI doing nothing to take land in NA. this should not be desirable.

I don't care if the player can blob in NA, the player can always blob everywhere. what I do care about is stupid underdeveloped systems being in the game, and now colonization basically being made obsolete everywhere. if we're not going to colonize anymore, then change countries' colonization bonuses to aid in conquering the new world, change everything around it. but they won't. it's lazy design

on top of that, the proper way to redesign natives is not to make it so four or five native tribes blob across the continent.

 

[RobbieAB]

@Zhetone you appear to be agreeing with me that changing away from the Terra Nullis model of colonisation is a bad thing...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

sure, you can say that - but that requires an overhaul of colonization mechanics, which hasn't happened nor is planned. the game is built around colonization for Europeans to take land in the new world, so without player intervention you often now see the AI doing nothing to take land in NA. this should not be desirable.

The AI doing nothing is a problem everywhere, not a property of an issue specific to NA/SA.

I don't care if the player can blob in NA, the player can always blob everywhere. what I do care about is stupid underdeveloped systems being in the game, and now colonization basically being made obsolete everywhere.

Picking idea groups to go colonial has been a questionable tactic in SP for years, relative to conquering land. Especially after the devs hammered tariff income, the math said no.

Having land to conquer improves the ROI, and there are new colony types now. So it's likely to be objectively better to go colonial in 1.31 than 1.30. Maybe not by enough to actually do it, but still a buff to colonizers in 1.31.

on top of that, the proper way to redesign natives is not to make it so four or five native tribes blob across the continent.

There is no "proper" way to redesign natives, other than to make sure the mechanics involved are internally consistent to EU 4.

~~~

Edit: my first post in this thread made three statements. One is objectively correct (1000's of monarch point deficit), others are demonstrable. It's interesting to see it get ratio'd so hard considering there isn't and won't be an accurate refutation. Consider this an argument challenge .

 

[Zhetone]

@Zhetone you appear to be agreeing with me that changing away from the Terra Nullis model of colonisation is a bad thing...

apologies, I meant to quote the post that you quoted

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Terra nullius is gameplay nullius. Since we're not modeling the extreme devastation of disease on NA/SA it's a little odd to expect land while doing practically nothing in a strategy game in the first place.

I also don't buy that there aren't valid places to put colonists into the 1600's in a typical EU 4 game. That is inconsistent with my observations.

 

[Vohen]

How do players win? Siege down their stuff and take it :/.

How do AI colonizers win?
Answer: they don't.

Since AI natives are still weaker than AI colonizers exactly due to that disparity you mentioned, this was just another nerf to the AI on a game where it is already very weak by itself.
In the end, this just gave the player a de facto monopoly on new world colonization.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

How do AI colonizers win?
Answer: they don't.

Again, this is not a property unique to NA, or even to the western hemisphere. Conquests of Iran, India x2, China, steppes, and Europe simply don't happen as historical or even close, routinely.

AI has an absolutely massive advantage against natives in 1.31, should it ever choose to use it.

 

[Vohen]

Again, this is not a property unique to NA, or even to the western hemisphere. Conquests of Iran, India x2, China, steppes, and Europe simply don't happen as historical or even close, routinely.

AI has an absolutely massive advantage against natives in 1.31, should it ever choose to use it.

It wasn't a problem before though, this is something they specifically broke in 1.31.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It wasn't a problem before though, this is something they specifically broke in 1.31.

Adding TAGs does not itself break the new world. That argument is like arguing that TAGs should be removed from India, Africa, Java, etc.

 

[Azwraith25]

Yes, the AI is braindead. That is true.

But that doesn't mean there's a problem with the natives. The problem is the AI is so dumb that in the 3 games I did since Leviathan I always saw england, spain or france lose wars against an enemy that has 1/10 the force limit and 5 techs behind (westernized as some people here seem to think even tho westernization was removed from the game). There seems to be a problem where the AI doesn't seem to know how to take troops from Europe to NA. That is a problem and needs to be looked into.

One of those games was as a colony and the natives are so easy to steamroll over that colonization is now easier since you can just take the provinces in wars left and right and don't have to wait for those few colonists to finish before going to the next province.

Also a few provinces being 14 or 17 development (what some people here call mega-cities even tho that's low to average for european development) instead of 3-5 is not a bad thing. It gives a bonus to colonists since you don't have to develop all land from scratch. But again, while the natives were updated, the AI is the same and doesn't send troops to actually fight the natives which is why you get to see the lack of european colonies on the east coast.

 

[Vohen]

Adding TAGs does not itself break the new world. That argument is like arguing that TAGs should be removed from India, Africa, Java, etc.

That was never my argument though?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It wasn't a problem before though, this is something they specifically broke in 1.31.

That was never my argument though?

The "problem" as you describe it comes from adding tags/native provinces. Unless you're making a serious case that NA natives can actually keep up with Spain/Portugal/France/UK absent AI's ineptitude at distance wars, but I'm assuming you're not making that case.