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Demorel

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I find the discussion amusing in how to make a game portray anarchists and anarchism correctly when the game itself requires you to sit there and make all the decisions yourself. Just sayin' ;)

Personally I find the whole pro-anarchy movement a waste of time. It was defeated about 10,000 years ago as homo sapiens began to figure out how to progress past band societies. I don't understand why some are so keen on trying to repeat that process?

I heard rumors about a pretty big pro-ana sleeper cell located somewhere around Paris, its also said to hang out a lot with members of very sociable bands.
 

perwalther

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Er, how would it be different from the anarcho-liberals? They establish a society where the church does not have any power (atheism), the state does not support corporations (LZ and free trade), all citizens are equal (full citizenship) and the system is stable- lack of political reforms because frustrated political reform desire makes people anarcho liberals :)

Not quite sure what you were trying to say. I simply pointed out that semipolitical discussions very often strays from game mechnics and becomes mainly political followed by some beeing upset. After that a thread lock or that the thread itself is moved from to another subforum.

However so far people are suprisingly civilized in their tone, maybe because ParadoxGames are for civilized people. :cool:
 

Dadekster

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Pretty simple: the want to resolve mankinds problems by building a better society. Look, writers of anarchist theories are not evil guys who want to drive the people into chaos, instead they truly believe their model of society would build a better world, solve the problems and shortcomings of the "traditional" world, and that their envisioned anarchist society would be better for man than the existing society. Same with communist theories, Marx himself was not evil, he never wanted things like Stalinist purges and Gulags, he really wanted to design a better society.

They really believe it.

Oh, I am not implying that any of these people are inherently evil due to their strong political convictions. I just am not naive enough to think that mankind will ever stop competing against each other. We are at this political point in history for exactly that extremely over-simplified reason but when you distill it enough, imo that is the real reason. Would I like to live in a setting as painted out in that FAQ that was posted, sure! Sounds swell everyone all equal and everything being shared with no one telling you what to do, but it ignores quite a bit of what makes homo sapiens tick, and yes, I read the preemptive evolution defense. :) In game terms it's all these political factions striving for power.
 

lol887

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Of course Marx would have expected that once the righteous government of the working class is in place, this perfect government would do only the best for the people.
Lenin was much more realist about that, expecting the proletarian dictatorship would have to kill lots of people ("enemies of the people").
I think this is touching the point why I could consider Marx evil(or at least power hungry). He may have belived himself that the Proletarian Dicatorship would do the right thing for the "People". This is just naive and not evil in itself, but when it's combined with a violent revolution it becomes evil. Forcing people to subject to you(or your ideology/Party), even when you think you are doing what is best for them, is nothing more than evil.
This is the same for any violent revolution, be it for a Monarchy, Communism etc.
 

wwwww

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Dude,

Marx didn't advocate forced labor, he only really wanted the overthrow of capitalism, communism could come about afterwards, naturally. But communism itself, while Marxists don't like to theorize utopias, is post scarcity and work is leisure. DotP doesn't mean a Stalinist bureaucracy having a monopoly over the means of production, it just means the proletariat holding political power. Bad choice of wording on Marx's part (though, he actually wrote little of it, it's more Leninist). Marx certainly didn't advocate "stealing from people" either, he advocated the elimination of private property (specifically private control of the means of production), and communists have always distinguished between "private property" and "personal property". As to "forcing people", did the bourgeoisie not force the serfs of France to get with the modern times?
 

SDSkinner

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Not quite sure what you were trying to say. I simply pointed out that semipolitical discussions very often strays from game mechnics and becomes mainly political followed by some beeing upset. After that a thread lock or that the thread itself is moved from to another subforum.

However so far people are suprisingly civilized in their tone, maybe because ParadoxGames are for civilized people. :cool:

My apologies- origionally I wrote that people's state would inevitably crush anarchism because it would grab the rubber producing provinces and control the worlds supply, but I realized it was over the top, thought a bit and realized that the anarcho-liberal ideology is the best way in game to represent anarchists. It looks disjointed because I deleted the first part.

Forcing people to subject to you(or your ideology/Party), even when you think you are doing what is best for them, is nothing more than evil.

But it will be a revolution by the majority- how could this possibly go wrong? Yeah, Marx ignored a large number of big warning signs (the French Revolution was only 50/30 years prior) and he assumed it would follow a set up where everything would be perfect. The most obvious problem is if your revolution requires a specific set up, telling everyone what it is insures it will never happen.

wwwww said:
Marx didn't advocate forced labor, he only really wanted the overthrow of capitalism, communism could come about afterwards, naturally.

Communist Manifesto: Chapter 2 said:
8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm
 
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Krautkopf

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However so far people are suprisingly civilized in their tone, maybe because ParadoxGames are for civilized people. :cool:

I agree with you, the tone is indeed civilized and it is a nice discussion. In most Forums I know, even the mentioning of political ideologies will trigger a flamewar :D

Cool people here, let´s keep it this way! ;)
 

ahen1020

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Apart from the implication that Africans are primitive by virtue of coming from Africa, no, I guess not.
People are primitive by virtue of coming from a primitive country.



That's such a rubbish justification of racism that I'm not even going to address it.
Do you just throw the word racism around like that all the time? I wasnt justifing racism, but stating the facts, just like if I were to say that when a political party came to power, unemployment has increased.
 

wwwww

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Yes, yes, I've read the manifesto. But Marx stated that capitalism would precede DotP (he never distinguished between socialism and communism, afaik (or that could be the evil ultra-left spilling lies into my ears)), and his experiences in London made him even more critical of utopian socialism. Utopians wanted to write about how communism/socialism would appear, Marx was scientific and rather wanted to focus on the now.

I actually don't quite remember the context of that quote, it was certainly reformist (not revolutionary, nor socialist). Marx, himself, admitted that the manifesto was an outdated work (the only work he was satisfied with was the Grundrisse).

Africa has cellphones now. I don't think we get to call the populance primitive anymore.

The notion of a primitive culture and people is a social construct.
 
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SDSkinner

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The section I quoted was laws that the dictatorship of the proletariat will carry out. To the best of my knowledge, Marx never describes the Utopia that is to come about or how a revolution would lead to it instead of copying the French Revolution

Utopians wanted to write about how communism/socialism would appear, Marx was scientific and rather wanted to focus on the now.

Your joking, correct? Utopian socialists attempted to put their idea into practice in the US, as well as in several other countries by establishing communes as well as enacting laws. Robert Owens wrote Plans for alleviating poverty through Socialism in 1817 and ran New Lanark for 25 years to attempt to convince other emplyers to provide more for their employees.


http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Utopian_communities.aspx

Additionally utopian socialist writings managed to reach large sections of the population- Looking Backwards was the second most popular book of the 19th century. They may not have wrote about revolution, but they certainly had definitive plans on how to put socialism into practice.

The notion of a primitive culture and people is a social construct.

All categories people divise are social constructs. That doesn't mean the social constructs don't correspond to something in reality. For example, people that have the high murder rate you find amoung hunter-gathers could reasonably be classified as primitive. It simply depends on what you mean by primitive. I expect the bar will continue to be raised until "people who are not immortal" becomes the standard.

Obviously I don't hold the bar as high as cell phones, but I used it as a humorous standard.
 
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wwwww

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The section I quoted was laws that the dictatorship of the proletariat will carry out. To the best of my knowledge, Marx never describes the Utopia that is to come about or how a revolution would lead to it instead of copying the French Revolution

As I've stated, the Manifesto is an outdated piece. It's from 1848, while Capital is from 1867 - Marx's experiences in London completely changed him.

Your joking, correct? Utopian socialists attempted to put their idea into practice in the US, as well as in several other countries by establishing communes as well as enacting laws. Robert Owens wrote Plans for alleviating poverty through Socialism in 1817 and ran New Lanark for 25 years to attempt to convince other emplyers to provide more for their employees.


http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Utopian_communities.aspx

Additionally utopian socialist writings managed to reach large sections of the population- Looking Backwards was the second most popular book of the 19th century. They may not have wrote about revolution, but they certainly had definitive plans on how to put socialism into practice.

Please explain to me how putting out such unscientific plans furthers class struggle.

I'm not going to leave a quote, but take this.

All categories people divise are social constructs.

I agree.
 

SDSkinner

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As I've stated, the Manifesto is an outdated piece. It's from 1848, while Capital is from 1867 - Marx's experiences in London completely changed him.

For those of us who have no intention of slogging through Das Capital, care to explain? The summaries I've seen if it only declares that capitalism will inevitably hit a declining rate of profits, which will result in its doom. Unless he rejects the dictatorship of the proletariat the critique stands.

Please explain to me how putting out such unscientific plans furthers class struggle.

Unlike Marx, the utopian socialist primary goal was not world revolution , but simply to reform the world into a better place. As such, they attempted laws to improve worker conditions, attempted to gain control of companies and enact reforms from within and to found communes to make a better society that could hopefully be replicated. They actually tried communal ownership of property to get it to work in the real world. This may sound incredibly naive... but some communes of that time actually worked. Oneida lasted 33 years, Amana Colonies lasted for 80 years and the Harmony Society lasted a century. Notably these are all religious but the utopian socialists thought they could replicate their success.

wwwww said:
Utopians wanted to write about how communism/socialism would appear, Marx was scientific and rather wanted to focus on the now.

wwwww said:
I'm not going to leave a quote, but take this.

Marx said:
Banished from official society, with a conspiracy of silence against him in the press, ruined by his unsuccessful Communist experiments in America, in which he sacrificed all his fortune, he turned directly to the working-class and continued working in their midst for 30 years. Every social movement, every real advance in England on behalf of the workers links itself on to the name of Robert Owen. He forced through in 1819, after five years’ fighting, the first law limiting the hours of labor of women and children in factories. He was president of the first Congress at which all the Trade Unions of England united in a single great trade association. He introduced as transition measures to the complete communistic organization of society, on the one hand, cooperative societies for retail trade and production. These have since that time, at least, given practical proof that the merchant and the manufacturer are socially quite unnecessary. On the other hand, he introduced labor bazaars for the exchange of the products of labor through the medium of labor-notes, whose unit was a single hour of work; institutions necessarily doomed to failure, but completely anticipating Proudhon’s bank of exchange of a much later period, and differing entirely from this in that it did not claim to be the panacea for all social ills, but only a first step towards a much more radical revolution of society.
 

Yazman

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Why?. A Anarchy is a society without a goverment and laws. This in most cases leads to the powerfull killing and repressing the less powerfull. Wich is what happened/happens in Somalia.
Thinking that a anarchist society can be anything but this is just wishfull thinking.
Anarchists imagine a society where people voluntarily work together for the common good. This falls appart the day one individual finds out we does not want to be a part of this, and istead takes power himself, steals or represses people. What's to stop him, there are no state after all.

Anarchists don't want "anarchy", they want anarchism. Anarchism is not a society without a government and laws - that is a very common misconception. They still advocate governance, but stateless governance, which means decentralisation, basically. The specifics of it work depending on what anarchist tendency you are.
 

SDSkinner

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Anarchists don't want "anarchy", they want anarchism. Anarchism is not a society without a government and laws - that is a very common misconception. They still advocate governance, but stateless governance, which means decentralisation, basically. The specifics of it work depending on what anarchist tendency you are.

Decentralization means you get "the state" at a local level- Athens, Rome, Venice and others shows how it would be. Athens is closest to their ideal version (with universal male sufferage, positions by lot), but it suffered from numerous flaws- politicians still managed to exist, class conflict still managed to flare up and it was unstable. While the latter two might be passed off as the nature of Greek city-states, politicians gaming the system and gaining power by clients and oratory are still a problem, as well as mob rule and Los Angeles invading Nevada for their water.
 

Jakalak

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First of all, dencentralization isn't exactly the right word, as SDSkinner pointed out.

To be honest, though, if Anarchists shouldn't exist in Victoria II, neither should Communists, unless you're putting quotes around it. Communism is a stateless, classless, moneyless society, which obviously wouldn't work well in Victoria II. It also allows a country to go immediately to communism without a Dictatorship of the Proletariat, which is actually an anarchist idea.
 

Phalanxia

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There's a difference between "Communism" and "communism" - the former is the stateless ideal that communists worked towards, whilst communists were the dudes who ran the Soviet Union.
 

Jakalak

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Actually, Communism, when capitalized, simply means an advocate of the Communist party.

(based on teachings of Lenin or Marx (or both))

When it isn't capitalized, it simply means an advocate of communism.

The meaning got thrown off around the time of the Cold War, when it became a pejorative for any nation that the U.S. happened not to like.

(based on my knowledge of the topic, at least, as well as with help from the dictionary)
 

Jakalak

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Ah, I see, my mistake. I actually haven't read any of his books, are they good?

If I were describing those who ran the Soviet Union, I would usually label them Marxist-Leninist, simply to avoid confusion, but since I haven't read any of Brown's books I didn't understand your distinction.
 
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