Analysis of Overseas & Non-Core Penalties [Looks Bugged]

[TheDarkside]

OK, I just used my Japan game to analyze and understand how the overseas & non-core penalties affect gameplay, and the results indicate it is bugged.

I used the following 4 provinces in my test, with base leadership/manpower as follows:
(Edit: They are all owned by me. Either mine from start or annexed. NONE are occupied)

Name    | MP | LDR  | Core? | Overseas?
--------+----+------+-------+----------
Tokyo   | 13 | 2.6  | Yes   | No
Seoul   | 4  | 0.8  | Yes   | Yes
Bose    | 10 | 2.5  | No    | Yes
London  | 11 | 2.75 | No    | Yes
--------+----+------+-------+----------

(MP = manpower, LDR = leadership)

And I have in my static modifiers the following penalties for overseas/non-core (I had non-core one modified lower):

overseas = {
	local_manpower_modifier = -0.75
	local_leadership_modifier = -0.9
}

non_core = {
	local_manpower_modifier = -0.50
	local_leadership_modifier = -0.50
}

Now, my game had several laws/techs and ministers which affect manpower and leadership, so I decided I need to eliminate those bonuses to get the most accurate results of this analysis.

Before I did remove them however, I took note of what the provinces were displaying.

Tokyo showed me it was having 19.50 manpower and 2.6 leadership. Well the leadership is the base value but the manpower was inflated by something.

I removed my Agriculture techs ... no effect on that number. Then I changed my law to the one that provides no bonus or penalty and then the display showed 13.0 manpower - the base value.

I had three factors providing bonus to leadership: law, technology and a minister. As I removed these they had no affect on the province display.

So this revealed one interesting fact:

Fact: Only Draft laws have any affect on the manpower/leadership displayed in a province's details window.

Ok, moving on...

Now I took note of every province's displayed values for MP/LDR:

Name    | MP   | LDR  
--------+------+------
Tokyo   | 13   | 2.6  
Seoul   | 4    | 0.8  
Bose    | 5    | 1.25  
London  | 0.0  | 0.00 
--------+------+------

Interesting, apparently the only ones affected by any penalty is Bose's Leadership and both of London's

But by my calculations, the results should look like this:

(Manpower)

        | Base | Oversea  | NonCore | Both    |   My   |    
Name    | MP   | (-0.75)  | (-0.50) | Penalty | Result | In-Game
--------+------+----------+---------+---------+--------+----------
Tokyo   | 13   |   N/A    |   N/A   |   N/A   |   13   |  13
Seoul   | 4    |   1.0    |   N/A   |   N/A   |   [COLOR="Yellow"]1    |   4[/COLOR]
Bose    | 10   |   2.5    |   5.0   |   1.25  |   [COLOR="Yellow"]1.25 |   5[/COLOR]
London  | 11   |   2.75   |   5.5   |   1.375 |  [COLOR="Yellow"]1.375 |   0[/COLOR]
--------+------+----------+---------+---------+--------+----------

(Leadership)

        | Base | Oversea  | NonCore | Both    |   My     |
Name    | LDR  | (-0.90)  | (-0.50) | Penalty | Result   | In-Game
--------+------+----------+---------+---------+----------+----------
Tokyo   | 2.6  |   N/A    |   N/A   |   N/A   |   2.6    |  2.6
Seoul   | 0.8  |   0.08   |   N/A   |   N/A   |   [COLOR="Yellow"]0.08   |  0.8[/COLOR]
Bose    | 2.5  |   0.25   |   1.25  |  0.125  |   [COLOR="Yellow"]0.125  |  1.25[/COLOR]
London  | 2.75 |   0.275  |   1.375 |  0.1375 |   [COLOR="Yellow"]0.1375 |  0.0[/COLOR]
--------+------+----------+---------+---------+----------+----------

So clearly my calculations do not match the in-game values.

What appears to be happening is two things:

1. The game is NOT treating Seoul (Korea) and Bose (South China) as overseas so they are not getting penalized as much as they probably should.

2. London is getting penalized by something much larger than the penalties I have.

So one assumption I have seen mentioned on the forum is that the penalties are being ADDED together instead of compounded like in my calculations.

To test this I editted my static modifiers file and paid attention to London.

Without the non-core penalty. London's MP went to 2.75, LDR to 0.27.
Without both non-core and overseas, it went to its proper base values of 11 and 2.75.

Then I tried this, I set both modifiers to -50%. The result?
Manpower and Leadership at 0

So it's true, game is adding penalties together and getting -100% when it should be applying 50% of 50% penalty.

Update: Just to clarify:

The Bug:

Penalties and Bonuses for manpower/leadership are being added together instead of compounded. The result is that if you have 50% penalty for overseas and 50% penalty for non-core the game adds them together for a 100% penalty. but this is not how percentages work. It's supposed to be 50% of 50%, so a value of 100 for example should end up being 25, not 0.

The rest of the thread is a discussion on how exactly the game decides something is "overseas"

 

[strongbowmatt]

Your work is throwing up some interesting analysis. Tricky for the rest of us to keep up!

One thing that might be relevant: could the "overseas" modifier actually mean "on another continent" (as defined in the map files). I guess that would be an easier thing for the game engine to calculate than looking for a land-only path from every province to the capital.

Not sure what I'd expect those modifiers to be doing. I guess I'd like there to be some benefit from exploiting all of my hard earned conquests across the waves, but given that plenty of other modifiers add up before being applied elsewhere in the game (especially in places where I expect them to), perhaps these are no different. It could be a little clearer, but this is digging into the depths of the engine where few gamers would tread.

 

[TheDarkside]

Your work is throwing up some interesting analysis. Tricky for the rest of us to keep up!

One thing that might be relevant: could the "overseas" modifier actually mean "on another continent" (as defined in the map files). I guess that would be an easier thing for the game engine to calculate than looking for a land-only path from every province to the capital.

Hmm, good point. I checked all my annexed provinces with leadership. If they were in Asia, I got their leadership and manpower. But if they were in Europe or Oceania, nothing.

So I tried a crazy test. I put London in Asia.

And guess what? It worked. I got full manpower/leadership.

But this brought up an interesting question, how does it look for a country which naturally spans multiple continents ... say, Soviet Union? I loaded up as SU with my -100% penalty to overseas and it turns out SU gets full manpower/leadership from any of its provinces be they in Europe or Asia.

I wonder though how that works. Is it because they are also core? Does having an overseas core negate the penalty? I went back to Japan and made London [after returning them to Europe of course] a core of Japan. But alas, still 0. So that didnt work.

So I am not sure yet why SU doesn't get penalized for it's "overseas" provinces. It does not have to do with land connection, because as Japan I have provinces in India which provide leadership/manpower to me. Siam, Tibet and Yunnan are all independent, I dont have any land conenction to India from China.

 

[Buh the Ghost]

EDIT: next time i will read the whole post before i answer

now i got an idea that wasn't mentioned before: Set Seoul as europe. Look if this changes something. Or better: set a city on japans homeland as europe and give it 10MP. Look if it gets penalized.

 

[TheDarkside]

EDIT: next time i will read the whole post before i answer

now i got an idea that wasn't mentioned before: Set Seoul as europe. Look if this changes something. Or better: set a city on japans homeland as europe and give it 10MP. Look if it gets penalized.

Good idea.

And the results only give more confusion...

I took Osaka and put it in Europe. Then I loaded up and I was still getting full MP/LDR from it... I thought maybe it does have something to do with tracing a land connection to capital? So I took Nara, Fukui and Kyoto and made them full Soviet provinces - cutting Osaka and rest of Japan from the capital. But that did not change anything...

Not sure how this part of it works..

 

[P3D]

Overseas penalty is valid only for different continents. Not for e.g. Konigsberg or Belfast, or Seoul for that matter.
WAD.

 

[TheDarkside]

Since you mentioned it I just tried Seoul, I put it in Europe and voila. No more manpower/leadership.

But why isn't this happening for Osaka? Strange mystery...

One thing I tried was thinking maybe if I moved the actual Osaka province file from the japan directory to another one it would work, but it did not... still getting MP/LDR from Osaka

 

[TheDarkside]

Overseas penalty is valid only for different continents. Not for e.g. Konigsberg or Belfast, or Seoul for that matter.
WAD.

Yeah we were just realizing that, but it is strange how even if I put Osaka in a different continent, the overseas penalty is not being applied. Any idea why?

But there is definitely a bug with how the overseas penalty and the non-core penalties combine. (See my London example in OP)

 

[Evil4Zerggin]

I've heard you only get overseas penalty if all of the following are true:

• Different continent.
• No land connection to the capital.
• More than some minimum distance away (I've no real data on this one).

 

[Guibod]

That's very interresting !

Evil4Zerggin assumption looks ok for me. But from the LUA modder point of view, there is actually no mean to calculate distance between two provinces, as well as a lighweight way to prove land connection.
Maybe the Clausewitz engine provide it, it would be great for modders.

 

[loki100]

That's very interresting !

Evil4Zerggin assumption looks ok for me. But from the LUA modder point of view, there is actually no mean to calculate distance between two provinces, as well as a lighweight way to prove land connection.
Maybe the Clausewitz engine provide it, it would be great for modders.

It may also be that there is something in how the game engine makes the USSR 'work' as it is the only (?) connected country that spans 2 continents (Europe and Asia) that has set off something elsewhere. I vaguely recall that one of the bugs in 1.1 was that the Soviet Union was being treated as part of Europe so couldn't trade with Mongolia and Tannu.

Its interesting in Darkside's tests that Osaka with a physical land connection (even if another country intervenes) generates full leadership/manpower regardless of its assigned continent whilst Seoul dips to zero.

Maybe the key bit is having land-connected (or connectable) cores in more than one continent means you gain leadership/MP on that continent? When Osaka was in 'Europe' did you put Seoul into Europe at the same time?

Of course, in typing this realised that France too has, at least in theory, a land connection from its capital to its provinces in Indo-China. So if France gains, say, Seoul, if I'm right it should get leadership and manpower but if the UK does it shouldn't?

 

[ForzaA]

I've heard you only get overseas penalty if all of the following are true:

• Different continent.
• No land connection to the capital.
• More than some minimum distance away (I've no real data on this one).

Considering that's how it works in EU3 - I think that's a fair thing to work from unless anything better comes up.
(and no, I don't know how the distance is calculated in EU3 either, although it evidently is )

 

[Guibod]

Nice test case, Loki100.

Regarding an hardcoded SOV management of its transcontinental status, I hope you are wrong. This would mean tons of exploits.
All of this is REALLY interresting as I work on AIIP mod management of offshore countries. At the moment we use two functions : isOceanNeighbour and isNeighbourOnSameContinent with static data. You investigation are showing great interrest to me.

I also plan to see if an undocumented method like "isOffshore" or "isNonCore" exists.

 

[unmerged(27419)]

it was called colonial before they renamed it oversea so the different continent+no land connection sounds about right

you can test this as italy, if you have a connection to africa then sever it youll notice your manpower and leadership dropping, havent tested how much though as currently manpower is to low in either case and leadership is to high.

 

[TheDarkside]

It may also be that there is something in how the game engine makes the USSR 'work' as it is the only (?) connected country that spans 2 continents (Europe and Asia) that has set off something elsewhere. I vaguely recall that one of the bugs in 1.1 was that the Soviet Union was being treated as part of Europe so couldn't trade with Mongolia and Tannu.

Its interesting in Darkside's tests that Osaka with a physical land connection (even if another country intervenes) generates full leadership/manpower regardless of its assigned continent whilst Seoul dips to zero.

Maybe the key bit is having land-connected (or connectable) cores in more than one continent means you gain leadership/MP on that continent? When Osaka was in 'Europe' did you put Seoul into Europe at the same time?

Of course, in typing this realised that France too has, at least in theory, a land connection from its capital to its provinces in Indo-China. So if France gains, say, Seoul, if I'm right it should get leadership and manpower but if the UK does it shouldn't?

I am sure it is not something hard coded with USSR,as I have tried an even crazier test... I basically gave all SOV provinces to some other country which did not exist at game start - I chose Iceland. Then I started the game as Iceland and sure enough, I got all manpower/leadership from all former Soviet provinces, from St Petersberg to Vladivostok.

I will try that with France and its Indochina provinces

 

[TheDarkside]

Considering that's how it works in EU3 - I think that's a fair thing to work from unless anything better comes up.
(and no, I don't know how the distance is calculated in EU3 either, although it evidently is )

I've got fairly accurate distances measured in my Army Organizer tool (to calculate distances between HQs). It is usually under 2% margin of error from the game. It's basically is a formula based on the actual center position of provinces.

 

[unmerged(149074)]

I've got fairly accurate distances measured in my Army Organizer tool (to calculate distances between HQs). It is usually under 2% margin of error from the game. It's basically is a formula based on the actual center position of provinces.

do you think it'd be possible to port that province distance measuring function to LUA? could you provide us with some code perhaps?
all we have now in LUA provided by the API is the function CCountry:GetDiplomaticDistance(CCountryTag otherCountry) which gives you the distance between two capitals i guess. from testing i saw it returns for example 12000 for germany and australia, 8000 for germany and japan and about 500 for germany and poland.

Then I tried this, I set both modifiers to -50%. The result?
Manpower and Leadership at 0

but why wasn't manpower of london not 0 in the first place (-0.75 oversea, -0.5 non-core)?

if i look at your table, i first thought the modifier for manpower is calculated by min(oversea, non-core) and for leadership (oversea + non-core) but your second test seems to negate this.. hmm

 

[TheDarkside]

if i look at your table, i first thought the modifier for manpower is calculated by min(oversea, non-core) and for leadership (oversea + non-core) but your second test seems to negate this.. hmm

Yeah I got worried there when you pointed that out, I could have sworn it was 0.0 so why did I write down 2.75, then I realized the error: I wrote that down PRIOR to changing my draft law. For some reason, when I have that draft law giving +50% bonus, London's MP is 2.75.

But when I changed my draft law to have no penalty/bonus, London gives 0.0

So that first table should say London -> MP = 0.0 (As this is supposed to be without any bonuses/penalties by any tech/law/minister)

I'll go ahead and fix that - sorry!

But this is another weirdness, how is +50% of 0.0 equal to 2.75 ? Something to do with the order in which these penalties/bonuses are being applied...

 

[TheDarkside]

Of course, in typing this realised that France too has, at least in theory, a land connection from its capital to its provinces in Indo-China. So if France gains, say, Seoul, if I'm right it should get leadership and manpower but if the UK does it shouldn't?

Started game as France with my regular static modifiers. I look at Saigon and I see 0.50 Manpower, 0.03 Leadership.

With -100% penalty to overseas it goes to 0

 

[JASGripen]

Depending on the OS you use you can get confused when meddling with the files. I experienced in Vista 64 that renaming a file to "X_old" wasn't sufficient to make the game use the (new edited) file "X". The game still used the original file despite renaming it "old". When I finally moved the "X_old" out from the folder then the game (or more correctly the OS) used the new file "X".