An unobtrusive yet compelling Ground Invasion System

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CastelloNova

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I'd like to offer just three simple points, of which I think you could iron out some of the problems involved with such a system.

----

1) There is no reason tile blockers should prevent armies from passing.

Implementation explanation: There is no need to make the task more difficult on the attack AI.

Lore explanation: Tile blockers are meant to make it difficult for settlement. Space armies should have no problem climbing a mountain, walking through territory with a few scary predators, across algae beds, or around volcanoes. Real armies do as much, and these are sci-fi armies we're talking about.

----

2) Armies should be able to beach-head wherever, and armies should be able to walk directly from one edge to the opposite edge (implying a spherical geometry.)

Implementation explanation: If the worry was that the enemy would be able to encircle your capital quickly, this is just as true for border landings. After all, you can put your capital near the border.

Lore explanation: As long as the land isn't shielded, planets are spherical and armies can land anywhere. Read the Red Rising Trilogy's Iron Rains.

----

3) There should be a risk to fleet strength involved with staying in orbit around a planet for longer. That is: planets should, as long as their fortifications remain strong and the planet remains uncaptured -- they should shoot back.

Implementation explanation: At the moment, there is no meaningful way to come back from a war without a fleet, and this is just because fleets are the only offensive unit and fleets are the only thing that can destroy fleets. The first is acceptable and makes sense. The second isn't, and harms gameplay, making long, drawn out wars feel pointless.

Essentially: there is no meaningful gain to be had from successfully defending a planet. Just less loss. This is a problem for game design.

Lore explanation: There doesn't seem to be any reason planets wouldn't have an arbitrary number of planetary defense cannons, surface-to-space howitzers capable of blowing up ships in orbit.

Implementation Concerns: I think the simplest manner of doing this is simply the AI generating a number of space howitzers proportionate to the planet's fortification capacity, and randomly placing them on tiles with pops. When an invading army takes the tile, the space howitzer is destroyed. Sufficient orbital bombardment on un-shielded planets can take out a few howitzers automatically as well.
Fair points across the board. Honestly i never expected to get it right the first go, I'm no proffesional when it comes to game design. This was simply a thought exercise that might spark some inspiration in the paradox team but even if it didn't would be fun none the less.

My only counter points would the Ground-to-Space weapons should be a building on the tile set that could only be silenced after ground forces secure or destroy it. As for landing anywhere, possibly? I would think that it makes sniping powerful and important buildings to easy.
 

HisHemroids

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You have yet to explain what your suggestion is actually adding to the game.

What i have been saying is:

An expanded ground combat system could be cool, but requires so much work on several game systems that the actual value is overall in question.

Sure, i personally would love to delve into a hoi like invasion, but then the empire managment must be able to run without my oversight for a while. But that is me. And its not likely to happen because the space game needs so much more fleshing out still.


So my orchestra is simply not a good fit for this stage, and might not even be liked by the audience in the first place. So why sell cards now?




From this thread i can already see that your school band play is also lacking in terms of an interested audience.

As i said:

What value is there to your proposal?





PS:

I have not discredited myself by saying that the ship designer is pointless. I already told you why it is. The game tells you why it is (ie: armor meta).

We are loading armor breakers because everything worth killing comes with insane armor. We are garing for armor because shields got nerfed when they removed the mass-regen gearing (but left armor creep unchecked).

Do you field lasers over plasmas? Is that minor boost in accuracy worth the net loss in pen? How is your kinetic fleet doing vs an armor breaker fleet when numbers are equal? I am sure that dimensional horror was really scared of your missiles....

Space combat and gearing need more refinement because right now: we all fit the game same goddamned gear. Plus/minus event based luck thingys. hence: the designer is kinda pointless.



As for planetary defense:
Well, turns out that long range bombardment is a thing and that the habit of planets to be kinda spherical will at any point in time nullify most of the guns on it....

Clearign al anding zone via long range bombardment would be trivial once you have space superiority, and the curvature of the world woudl make most weapons pointless, since they arent even in the same hemisphere as the fleet, especially if the fleet keeps lowering the altitude.


Also, ground fire starts at an disadvantage since it has to fire UP the gravity well, whilee the dude in space can fire down and move away. Whiel your gun dos not move. And gets hit by a weapon supported by gravity.


So you see, more work is needed on your part.
 

Larknok1

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Fair points across the board. Honestly i never expected to get it right the first go, I'm no proffesional when it comes to game design. This was simply a thought exercise that might spark some inspiration in the paradox team but even if it didn't would be fun none the less.

My only counter points would the Ground-to-Space weapons should be a building on the tile set that could only be silenced after ground forces secure or destroy it. As for landing anywhere, possibly? I would think that it makes sniping powerful and important buildings to easy.

There's no reason to think that a massive planet would just have one or two surface-to-space howitzers.

Keep in mind: the howitzer building and placement would all be automated proportional to fortification when the siege begins. So a planet with several buildings that provide bonuses to fortification would, by proxy, increase the number of garrisoned surface-to-space howitzers the AI would place for you.
 

CastelloNova

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You have yet to explain what your suggestion is actually adding to the game.

Army designer, the same level of combat mechanics as Space battles, the potential to hurt enemy empires through pop death and building destruction, non musketline combat, more valuable generals. You'd know that if you read the OP.

Do you field lasers over plasmas? Is that minor boost in accuracy worth the net loss in pen? How is your kinetic fleet doing vs an armor breaker fleet when numbers are equal? I am sure that dimensional horror was really scared of your missiles....

HELL YES! I do it for the same reason I run lore builds on my mechs in Mechwarrior: Online. I like to roleplay my factions, make suboptimal decisions based on what they would actually do instead of whats best. I would rather lose a game having fun then have every single round boil down to "This is the meta gotta stick to it."

The grand strategy community is built on the what-ifs not the what's-best.

As for planetary defense:
Well, turns out that long range bombardment is a thing and that the habit of planets to be kinda spherical will at any point in time nullify most of the guns on it....

Clearign al anding zone via long range bombardment would be trivial once you have space superiority, and the curvature of the world woudl make most weapons pointless, since they arent even in the same hemisphere as the fleet, especially if the fleet keeps lowering the altitude.


Also, ground fire starts at an disadvantage since it has to fire UP the gravity well, whilee the dude in space can fire down and move away. Whiel your gun dos not move. And gets hit by a weapon supported by gravity.


So you see, more work is needed on your part.

In stellaris you have not just one but four ways to break past the speed of light. You can't argue realism like planet curvature, gravity or long range bombardment issues while having FTL, if we can make FTL we can solve those minor issues as well.
 
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LastLeviathan

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There's no reason to think that a massive planet would just have one or two surface-to-space howitzers.

Keep in mind: the howitzer building and placement would all be automated proportional to fortification when the siege begins. So a planet with several buildings that provide bonuses to fortification would, by proxy, increase the number of garrisoned surface-to-space howitzers the AI would place for you.

To keep it simple, perhaps just for every tile you control with an army (Garrison or other), a surface to space defense is added to your total. A fleet simply takes attrition like it would in a Defense station minefield when orbiting. Damage per day varies on the amount of tiles controlled essentially.
 

Larknok1

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To keep it simple, perhaps just for every tile you control with an army (Garrison or other), a surface to space defense is added to your total. A fleet simply takes attrition like it would in a Defense station minefield when orbiting. Damage per day varies on the amount of tiles controlled essentially.

I like that! This way, the system actually works against the doom-stack rather than for it.
 

CastelloNova

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To keep it simple, perhaps just for every tile you control with an army (Garrison or other), a surface to space defense is added to your total. A fleet simply takes attrition like it would in a Defense station minefield when orbiting. Damage per day varies on the amount of tiles controlled essentially.
I like that! This way, the system actually works against the doom-stack rather than for it.
Agreed it's a clean and relatively simple solution.
 

LastLeviathan

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I like that! This way, the system actually works against the doom-stack rather than for it.
One problem is that people will mention that a fleet should be able to fire back at these defenses. A possible solution to that is to add a chance of destroying the ground defense per month (like the % chance of ruining a building). The higher the bombardment type, the greater the chance of destroying the ground defense on a tile, and a shield generator would either minimize that or make them immune until the tile it is on was taken.
 

Larknok1

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One problem is that people will mention that a fleet should be able to fire back at these defenses. A possible solution to that is to add a chance of destroying the ground defense per month (like the % chance of ruining a building). The higher the bombardment type, the greater the chance of destroying the ground defenses, and a shield generator would either minimize that or make them immune until the tile it is on was taken.

That's the idea I had in mind, with one addendum: you can't destroy any howitzers until planet fortification reaches 0.
 

Nikitian

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Frankly, I'd rather not have to decide between building defenses and building civilian (economy, research, etc.) buildings; maybe in the rare case of whole planetary shield, or things on that scale - something that makes a lot of difference. Having space howitzers I'd very much hope would not need to limit my non-military build-up.

Speaking of the planetary shields, one thing that has bothered me for some time: why no intermediary options? Sure, lesser & weaker shields are abstracted into planetary fortifications (possible to wear down, etc.) - but what about shields that are lesser in size, but still powerful enough to withstand orbital bombardment? They would be far easier to invent and implement than a full-scale planetary shield, yet would probably lead to the necessity of ground warfare even more than their big brothers - as they'd be far more economical and easier to afford on many more planets, yet still can cover at least a part of those planets, can still allow to hold out against half-hearted sieges. (Not sure if it should take up a slot or not; probably just an added defense to the tile with the planetary capital (+ maybe those with the 'military' buildings) when the relevant tech is researched? That would hopefully make enough sense while not gimping the general capacity of the planet.)

Edit: Clarified a bit.
 

Cannes

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Neat but no thanks. In the grand scheme of things is it really worth taking your attention off of the galaxy at large just so you can focus on the battle for ONE PLANET?!
Sometimes it might be, here you will have the option to do so and you would be looking at something compelling when you do. The current system is silly, you either lose none or you lose all of your armies in a battle. Its painfully one-dimensional.
 

Shermanator

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I think that the idea of great, perhaps it could be refined, their is always room for improvement, but broadly I think this fits very well.
This would add almost no more micro to the game then their already is, what don't people get about the fact that this is fully automated?
While it certainly should be automated by default, I don't think their would be any harm in a starting option that allows you to command your troops manually, if you want, which would be off by default.

I like the idea of the planetary shield change. In the current version I have never seen any reason to build one at all, this would actually make them useful and it would make ground combat more then a speedbump even without war exhaustion changes.
 

LastLeviathan

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Frankly, I'd rather not have to decide between building defenses and building civilian (economy, research, etc.) buildings; maybe in the rare case of whole planetary shield, or things on that scale - something that makes a lot of difference. Having space howitzers I'd very much hope would not need to limit my non-military build-up.

Speaking of the planetary shields, one thing that has bothered me for some time: why no intermediary options? Sure, lesser & weaker shields are abstracted into planetary fortifications (possible to wear down, etc.) - but what about shields that are lesser in size, but still powerful enough to withstand orbital bombardment? They would be far easier to invent and implement than a full-scale planetary shield, yet would probably lead to the necessity of ground warfare even more than their big brothers - as they'd be far more economical and easier to afford on many more planets, yet still can cover at least a part of those planets, can still allow to hold out against half-hearted sieges. (Not sure if it should take up a slot or not; probably just an added defense to the tile with the planetary capital (+ maybe those with the 'military' buildings) when the relevant tech is researched? That would hopefully make enough sense while not gimping the general capacity of the planet.)

Edit: Clarified a bit.
Perhaps a version that is cheaper but provides only a defense from bombardment to those tiles adjacent to it? And we're not talking about the howitzers being buildable, but rather automatic much like garrisons are generated.

Also, I mocked up a test for an army designer. It's just a rough draft, but could get people thinking what they want to see or not see. Essentially the idea is you make an army with up to three (being the arbitrary max for this example) unit types and can have an attachment with it.

armydeisgner.jpg
 

unfringed

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I like the idea. It paves the way for introducing mechanics such as attrition, partisans and army caps that makes occupation something that requires substantial resource investment and limits it by the attacking empire's size.

Accompanied by a warscore rebalancing, a system like this, a cap on max army size (like fleet size cap), and some system where pops can resist invaders but slowly depopulate the planet, and a new avenue for white peacing a war/minimizing losses is introduced. A species with resilient, very strong, etc could put up a fierce resistance on the homeworld front that drains the invader's resources even if they can't match them in space combat. In the long run, the defenders should lose, but an empire built around defense should be able to make that very expensive. Think EU4 Russia.
 

Larknok1

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The purpose of this post is to outline what I see as the major pros and cons of CastelloNova's proposition, and see if anything can be done about the cons.

---

The pros first:

Pro #1: Fleshing out the little things in larger-than-life games can and does breathe life into them. It makes game moments more emotionally impactful and gives games a longer lifespan.

Pro #2: His army design screen would vastly reduce the tedium involved with equipping hundreds of armies with hunter-killer drones (or other attachments), or the droll of having to recruit dozens of armies by simply recruiting two or three divisions consisting of several armies.

Pro #3: His ground invasion system provides content for those looking for it, but does not punish players who just want to get along with their empires. (you don't have to watch the combat)

Pro #4: Some of the code and design could be readily borrowed from HoI4 for easier implementation.

---

Now the cons:

Con #1: Notwithstanding HoI4 experience and code, this is an entire game mechanic to code and generate artwork for.

Con #2: For such a large investment of development time, this does not meaningfully impact balance, or fix the existing problems with fleetless defensive wars, or offensive grinds.

Con #3: Real planets do not have borders to "beach" at. They are spherical and armies could land or begin an invasion anywhere.

Con #4: Arbitrarily selecting a time-span (15 days) for armies to land could result in planetary invasion taking too long.

Con #5: Attack AI could get bogged down with landing on zones blocked off by tile blockers.

---

Addressing the simple cons:

Cons #3, #4, and #5 can be addressed simply and immediately:

Correcting Con #3: Simply allow armies to "beach" at any tile. Allow armies to move directly from one edge of the planet to the opposite edge, simulating spherical geometry.

Correction Con #4: While developing this feature, simply fine-tune the time-span for landing a new army during invasion so the whole planetary invasion process takes the right amount of time.

Correction Con #5: Simply allow soldiers to walk on and past tile blockers. Tile blockers are meant to make it difficult for settlement. Space armies should have no problem climbing a mountain, walking through territory with a few scary predators, across algae beds, or around volcanoes. Real armies do as much, and these are sci-fi armies we're talking about.

---

Addressing the complex con:

Con #2 is a complicated nut to crack. On page 5 of CastelloNova's thread, I presented a solution:

Anti-Space Howitzers
7c705d608041e8ca925023fe134920a1.jpg


Here's the basic idea:

At the moment, the following two claims are true:

1) Fleets are the only truly offensive unit.
2) The only effective way of destroying fleets are with fleets.

The first claim is how it will always be and should be.

The second claim is the problem here. It's turning war into a death-ball single battle that decides the fate of the whole war, making defense pointless, and turning offense into a painful grind.

---

Anti-Space Howitzers would fit perfectly with CastelloNova's design, and solve Con #2.

In order to avoid a bad implementation of Anti-Space Howitzers, let's examine the possibility of their implementation within CastelloNova's design.

---

Topic #1: Existence

Possibility #1) Anti-Space Howitzers could be a defensive unit that you can add to a division and train within armies.

> On this account, they have a specific location on the combat map provided by CastelloNova, and so they can help solve Con #2 to his design.
> A large con to this option is the amount of micro-management it would require.


Possibility #2) Anti-Space Howitzers could be their own unit type, automatically spawned by the AI when an invasion starts, with a number of them proportional to the fortification of the planet.

> This also solves Con #2, as they fit on the combat map.
> A large pro to this option is how little micro-management it would require, while making good use of the already existing system of planetary fortification.

---

Topic #2: Effectiveness

Possibility #1) Anti-Space Howitzers could deal targeted, direct damage to orbiting ships.

> This helps to solve Con #2, but has its own problem: this would force attacking players to use only large fleets to minimize overall fleet damage incurred from howitzers.


Possibility #2) Anti-Space Howitzers could deal small AoE damage to all orbiting ships per howitzer.

> This also solves Con #2, and has the pro that it actually punishes large, death-stack orbiting fleets.

---

Topic #3: Counter-play

Possibility #1) Anti-Space Howitzers have a chance of being destroyed during bombardment each month, based on the degree of the bombardment. Once an army moves onto a tile with an anti-space howitzer, it is destroyed.

> Simple, default design.


Possibility #2) Possibility 1 + they cannot be destroyed until planetary fortification reaches 0.

> Has the advantage of providing a real, tangible reason to drop a planet's fortifications as fast as possible. Right now, there's almost no advantage to having bombardment policy above light.


Possibility #3) Possibility 2 + planetary shield generators entail that Anti-Space Howitzers can never be targeted by orbiting fleets. Either the fleet has to bombard the shield generator first, or land armies are the only way to destroy anti-space howitzers.

> Provides a tangible reason to build shield generators: even more fortification for stronger planetary defenses, plus anti-space howitzers can hit orbital targets for effectively much longer.

---

Personally, my preferences are:

Topic #1: Possibility #2

Topic #2: Possibility #2

Topic #3: Possibility #3

---

This just leaves Con #1.

At this point, you really have to weight the pros of a more in-depth ground invasion system and more balanced defensive wars against development time.
 

V3N0M1300

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Except not everyone wants to purge the entire planet and turn it into a lifeless husk?

Also, orbital bombardment doesn't garuntee people will surrender. There are numerous instances in scifi where the only way to actually capture the planet is with a ground invasion.

And purely from a strategic standpoint, completely decimating a planet completely eliminates the benefit of taking it.

I didn't realize how badly i wanted underground tunnels until now.
 

eon47

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For some civilizations yes completely, I highly doubt pacifists would ever willingly fight to the death. But for Xenophobes and Militarists especially I don't see them ever surrendering without a fight and if they did the moment the fleet left system that they would immediately restart the fight again producing minerals for the war effort.
Whoa there--just because a society has no desire to wage offensive wars, that doesn't mean they'd be any more likely to accept being conquered. It's just as likely that a pacifist tradition might incentivize resistance against a foreign military power, while militarists might see their conquest by a stronger species as logical to a certain degree--there's really no predicting.

Sorry if this has been addressed already, and for harping on this one detail--I was just very taken aback. :D