An unobtrusive yet compelling Ground Invasion System

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CastelloNova

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If you don't control the space above a planet, you can't land. That what it boils down to.

Which can be secured by fleets as small as 800 fleet power. What is impossible is that small fleet burning down the fortifications before relief forces destroy or scare them off. Get rid of Planetary fortifications and lightning stikes suddenly become viable. A cruiser with a small flotilla of destroyers and corvettes can enter system destroy the spaceport and begin landing troops immediately and even if reinforcements arrive before all boots are on the ground the strike fleet can perform a delaying action. Sure they'll be destroyed but two, three or even four more armies will have made landfall.

Suddenly there's a really, really good reason to split your fleets and smaller empires have a fighting chance against bigger bullies. It also helps prevent that first doomstack clash being utterly decisive.
 
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scaper12123

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The whole planet tile thing you suggest is something I've been thinking should be a thing for a while now, but I for one don't think it should be anywhere near as complex as you're suggesting. I feel like the most complexity for ground invasion could come from where you place military bases to boost/heal armies and where you choose to land your troops in the hopes of attacking the bases in such a way that you don't get overwhelmed.
 

Qoff

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The game would be awful long and you would be vulnerable while taking ground battles.

I would suggest something much more simpler, a rock, paper, scizors system.
 

Magdaki

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I would not want anything at like that expressed in the OP. I'd be perfectly fine with the ground combat being simplified, not made more (and in my mind needlessly) complex.
 

CastelloNova

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The game would be awful long and you would be vulnerable while taking ground battles.

Arguably as it should be. It took 6 years to fight for europe. I dont ever expect ground engagements to last even a year but we are fighting for an entire planet. the current 2 month average is a bit short.

But i don't understand how it makes you vulnerable? I mean I even went back to bold and underline the part right at the start of the OP that says this is just as automated as the current system.
 

Oracle6

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As an add-on to this you could add a ground to orbit gun to help defend your planets. For example, the gun will target one ship and focus fire until it is destroyed.
This can be combined with the vanilla shield generator so that it can't be destroyed via bombardment,
 

clockworkBabbag

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I've spent the past hour or so looking through the forums looking at several suggestions for ground combat and noticed a few trends that cause them to be denounced by the greater community and even the Wiz himself. Almost every suggestion seems to involve some sort of minigame or player interaction that takes up your micro time and bogs down multiplayer. So I felt the need to try my hand at keeping it automated but making it more complex then spaming assault armies. I hope I've struck a good balance.

The fact that you don't want to add micro makes this immediately better than most suggestions aimed at "improving" ground combat (I would say, though, that having more options in how to design your planetary defense or invasion force is micro too. Micro doesn't have to just be referring to direct control of troops - any suggestion that fleshes out some mechanic to involve more interesting choices necessarily increases the amount of micro the player needs to do to manage it). But your suggestion falls victim to exactly the same issue all but one such suggestion I've seen does: it addresses the wrong problem.

The problem is not really that most suggestions to flesh out ground combat are boring, micro-heavy slogs. The problem is that ground combat has (unless you're abusing shoddy warfare AI behavior) essentially no bearing on the outcome of the war, and therefore ground combat is intrinsically boring.

Does your suggestion address the fact that in order to launch invasions, you almost certainly have to have naval superiority in space? Does it address the fact that once you have naval superiority there is nothing that stops you from keeping naval superiority as long as you play intelligently? Does it address the fact that once you have naval superiority, it is literally just a matter of time to conquer any world, no matter how well-defended, and that therefore invasions are just an unnecessary waste of time for the outcome of the overall war?

No?

Then you haven't really solved the problem.

I'd be fine with more fleshed-out ground combat in the style you have here, but only if the implementation didn't take away from dev time on more important core mechanics of the game. And I wouldn't advocate for its inclusion, and I honestly wouldn't see any kind of strategic use from playing around with it - why defend on the ground when having a powerful navy is far more important? It would just be a mildly interesting thing for a bit, and then would get boring once it was clear that it once again didn't matter to the course of the war.

The real way to "fix" ground combat and planetary defenses, to make it interesting and engaging, is to come up with a way for planetary defenses to actually impact the course of the war. Not by making it take longer to invade a world, because that doesn't change anything. Rather, planetary defense should be improved by making it harder for your opponent to maintain the naval superiority they need to be able to launch invasions in the first place.
 

BIGTEX285

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This is the most well-thought out idea, I've seen on a forum, in a looonnnggg time. I absolutely love everything about it. @Wiz should really take it into consideration...

Also, in response to the "but I have big guns on mah ships" posters, boots on the ground will ALWAYS be a requirement in war. Yeah, you can glass a planet if you want to, but people can dig big holes to survive in, as well as shoot back at your big spaceships. You might also want to live on that planet after you take it too. Burning all the living material on the surface won't really help you do that, now will it... There will always be a need for infantry.

join-up-now.jpg
 

BIGTEX285

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The problem is not really that most suggestions to flesh out ground combat are boring, micro-heavy slogs. The problem is that ground combat has (unless you're abusing shoddy warfare AI behavior) essentially no bearing on the outcome of the war, and therefore ground combat is intrinsically boring.

Does your suggestion address the fact that in order to launch invasions, you almost certainly have to have naval superiority in space? Does it address the fact that once you have naval superiority there is nothing that stops you from keeping naval superiority as long as you play intelligently? Does it address the fact that once you have naval superiority, it is literally just a matter of time to conquer any world, no matter how well-defended, and that therefore invasions are just an unnecessary waste of time for the outcome of the overall war?

Maybe if your POPS cared about the outcome of battles. Depending on your government type, or policies in place, your POPS would receive information about the outcomes of battles. If you won or lost, how many ships/armies you killed or lost, how much energy and minerals were lost because of the battle, how LONG a war has gone on. Currently, you can wage a war with an empire indefinitely, without any major effects to your nation if you're not pacifists. With the recent focus on POPS wants and feelings, this would fit in perfectly as well. #WarExhaustion

The real way to "fix" ground combat and planetary defenses, to make it interesting and engaging, is to come up with a way for planetary defenses to actually impact the course of the war. Not by making it take longer to invade a world, because that doesn't change anything. Rather, planetary defense should be improved by making it harder for your opponent to maintain the naval superiority they need to be able to launch invasions in the first place.

I agree here. Planetary defenses should definitely be a major threat to fleets. Starports already serve this role in the early game, there should be a way for an empire to make defenses viable in the mid-to-late game as well. I need Ion Cannons in my life Paradox!
 

Chreees

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I agree here. Planetary defenses should definitely be a major threat to fleets. Starports already serve this role in the early game, there should be a way for an empire to make defenses viable in the mid-to-late game as well. I need Ion Cannons in my life Paradox!
I fear if Ion cannons were added to the game I would spend my entire time pretending to be the Rebellion in Empire Strikes Back
 

krios41

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My only gripe with the current mechanics is that there is no way of defending yourself from an invasion.
Sure you can station 15 gene warriors, but if your fortifications are gone those gene warriors might aswel not be there.
Even when not having naval superiority i want a way to be able to defend my planets. I don't care if that is trough guns on the ground shooting at the fleet above, or by having your army's actually stand a chance against an invasion.

Right now, Trying to ward of an invasion is not even a speedbump for teh attacker, at most it is a pebble on the road.
 

stumason

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Also, in response to the "but I have big guns on mah ships" posters, boots on the ground will ALWAYS be a requirement in war. Yeah, you can glass a planet if you want to, but people can dig big holes to survive in, as well as shoot back at your big spaceships. You might also want to live on that planet after you take it too. Burning all the living material on the surface won't really help you do that, now will it... There will always be a need for infantry.

Agreed - anyone who advocates that some ships in orbit automatically trump anything on a PLANET is an idiot, in my opinion.

Almost all sci-fi has a form of ground warfare in, for starters.

Secondly, why the flook can a planet not shoot back? It dwarfs any fleet in terms of size and potential power, why does it just sit there and take it?

Thirdly, why does a fight for a planet only take weeks? It's daft.

So, in short - excellent OP. I hope they pay attention to it, but don't hold your breath. Wiz has stated before that, given the choice, he'd have not had ground combat at all as he thinks it's all about spaceships......
 

BIGTEX285

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Agreed - anyone who advocates that some ships in orbit automatically trump anything on a PLANET is an idiot, in my opinion.

Almost all sci-fi has a form of ground warfare in, for starters.

Secondly, why the flook can a planet not shoot back? It dwarfs any fleet in terms of size and potential power, why does it just sit there and take it?

Thirdly, why does a fight for a planet only take weeks? It's daft.

So, in short - excellent OP. I hope they pay attention to it, but don't hold your breath. Wiz has stated before that, given the choice, he'd have not had ground combat at all as he thinks it's all about spaceships......
Yes, his lack of faith in ground combat disturbs me. We must show him the way...
 

stumason

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Yes, his lack of faith in ground combat disturbs me. We must show him the way...

Indeed - as shown in the OP, it doesn't need to be a micro hell.

I've said it many times before, but Distant Worlds managed it perfectly and tbh, they've pretty much copied the way PDS do it in their other games. You have a screen on the planet view, split down the middle with opposing forces either side, a bunch of modifiers for terrain, population, orbital superiority (which could replace planet fortifications in Stellaris?) and unit types and they slogged it out. No requirement to do anything from the player, but a much more engaging system that made planet scraps worthwhile. (oh, you could edit the names of your armies as well - might seem minor, but this would please me a great deal)

For what its worth, the lack of ground combat has turned me off other space 4x games before. It makes no sense that planets would roll over in the face of some ships in orbit.
 

Calvax

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Agreed - anyone who advocates that some ships in orbit automatically trump anything on a PLANET is an idiot, in my opinion.

If you don't mind annihilating your enemy then it makes sense, but if you intend to capture their infrastructure and assimilate their population then it's of very limited use. Sure you could call in ground strikes so in rural areas you'd dominate. But in urban areas, where fighting is building to building, you're going to need ground troops else you risk destroying the very thing you came for.
 

ModZero

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Fighting on planet tiles is silly both for realism and visual..An abstracted combat view like HOI4 would be suffice.

Yes. It's unobtrusive, but it makes combat interesting enough to actually look at it sometimes. Very abstract, but "those soldiers are assaulting a bridge now" adds a bit of character.

Instead of making combat on planet tiles we should just get rid of the tiles /troll.
 

Magdaki

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The problem with making a more complex ground combat system isn't the system itself it is the side effects.

You aren't going to change the outcome. Wars are decided in space. The side that controls space is going to win on the ground. It is simply inevitable. All you can add is a cost to taking the planet by, for example, making it so ground defenses can destroy space fleets. That in itself isn't a reason not to make ground combat more complex. Maybe if the system is fun that makes it worthwhile even if the outcome is inevitable. I would dispute this but let's say that it is true.

Everything you add to the game has to interacted with by the AI. Whatever system is developed cannot be trivial because if it is trivial then why bother adding it. So if we assume it is non-trivial, then the AI must not have an obvious blindspot; otherwise, you break the game. Suppose for example that somebody discovers that the AI never builds a counter to X, the player will quickly discover this then you've radically altered the balance of the game for the player. And this isn't just about making the AI able to fight well on the ground, but effects strategic AI. How many of forces of type X do I need to build? Where do I need to place them? It is not hard to imagine a scenario where the AI is incapable of conquering a planet.

But let's say you built a superbly balanced system. And you've build an AI that can adequately interact with it. Everything you add to the game has a computational cost. There's already a ton of complaints about late (sometimes mid) game slowdown. I question the value of making ground combat more complex which inevitably creates places for the AI to fail and increases the computational cost, for no overall game effect. If you control space, you will win as you can continue to dump troops onto the planet until you do win.

My preference is that they focus on what really matters. Make space battles fun and additionally I'd rather the AI be highly successful at fighting in space because that's what decides wars. I'd like to see all of the decision time being used currently for dealing with ground combat placed in dealing with space combat.