An in-game way to get rid of Chinese factions?

[Kyoumen]

Pretty much every time I see Ming collapse in a game, any Steppe Nomads it annexed get released as Celestial Empires, possibly because Steppe Nomads are also not a valid government for a new nation? I assumed that would have been a known bug, guess I should've checked!

 

[unmerged(8894)]

There should be a way to get rid of them but there isn't. Its another short sighted flaw in DW. And countries that appear when Ming collapses apparently can get Celestial Empire as their gov type. In my current game the Mongol horde, Oirat Horde and Kazakhs have it.

 

[matt12th]

The problem is the factions do not apply to AI control of Ming.

This seems to defeat the whole purpose.

 

[Darkrenown]

Ironic really that we get this being said in the DD:


and then in this thread:

Not really. Rather than a flat penalty they have a varible faction system, it's hardly the same. Ming was always going to have some limitations, just not a flat penalty anymore.

 

[Zanko Hale]

My only issues with the factions is early game when the sliders aren't ideal for expansion of any kind, later on you can change factions pretty much at a slider change.

Sure the sliders aren't "optimal" but you're Ming, a beast from day 1, just be patient.

 

[unmerged(101730)]

That's always been the case. For instance in previous versions Confucianism had a -50% tax income penalty. Without penalties Ming is unhistorically overpowered.

You could get rid of that though, and rather fast (that is, still in the 15th century) if you know what you're doing.

Hindu Ming is scary, too.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Not really. Rather than a flat penalty they have a varible faction system, it's hardly the same. Ming was always going to have some limitations, just not a flat penalty anymore.

They do however have penalties that only Ming has, and that Ming cannot get rid of though. This looks like penalising Ming for being Ming.

Example - Cannot go above force limits.
Example - At least one of army or navy limits are always massively reduced.
Example - You can either build, colonise or go to war.

If Manchu annex/inherit Ming, they don't get any of these penalties. Despite being an equally large juggernaut able to sweep across Asia in the same way.

If that statement that AI Ming can ignore the factions is true, this needs to be sorted in a patch. Nations should play by the same rules whether AI or player led. The same applies to AI annexation/vassalisation/normal diplomacy with AI hordes.

 

[mkhuh]

My only issues with the factions is early game when the sliders aren't ideal for expansion of any kind, later on you can change factions pretty much at a slider change.

I think that's kind of the the point though...keep Ming from expanding early on by putting Bureaucrats in power.

I kind of like the limitations of the factions (army and navy limits, colonization vs. buildings vs. missionaries).
The only issue I see with factions is that they make your dilomacy ineffective as you can't really enforce anything (no DOW unless temple faction is in power). Not sure how to solve that issue as it takes something out of the game experience - things like guarantees, PUs/Claim Throne, SOI, generally have no purpose which makes things sort of unrealistic. One would expect Ming to get involved provided it is stable enough for that. But I guess that's the nature of the beast.

I think it would make sense if factions went away after a couple of hundred years (or after westernizing) because by then everyone had a fair shot at them and they are probably not as big anymore anyway. And if they are player controlled, they are a likely juggernaut in any case (just like France, England, or HRE).

 

[Darkrenown]

If that statement that AI Ming can ignore the factions is true, this needs to be sorted in a patch. Nations should play by the same rules whether AI or player led. The same applies to AI annexation/vassalisation/normal diplomacy with AI hordes.

Yes, obviously bugs need to be fixed in a patch

And I'd say the factions are more a limitation than a penalty, you can do anything, just not everything at the same time. Whereas previously you just had a flat penantly.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

OK, who let the devs have access to the comedy box?

I will agree that the factions are a limitation, but then we still have Ming being limited in a way no other nation is, just because it is Ming. For example, Ming is the only nation that cannot build above forcelimits if it becomes necessary. At the same time, they suffer from having that force limit drastically reduced if the governing faction changes, which will then often massively damage the income/expenditure balance.
If there were a way that factions could come to affect any nation (probably different ones depending on situation and nation), or there were a way for Ming to lose the factions then they would be more sensible. Even if there were a way to limit the effect of the factions, or get to a position to reduce the limitations they place on you it would be good.

Separate, yet linked thought:
If somehow Manchu inherit Ming, then if I have it correctly, both factions and Celestial Empire disappear from the map?

 

[Zanko Hale]

I think that's kind of the the point though...keep Ming from expanding early on by putting Bureaucrats in power.

Please don't misunderstand, I wasn't complaining about the factions nor the initial sliders; I enjoy the ability to colonize Taiwan and the Mongol Khanate using the first batch of colonists thanks to the early Enuch control. Afterwards; I'm stuck with Beaurocrats, which at a point when I want to consolidate/strengthen my infrastructure they allow me to.

My point was, the factions are an initial hurdle; like France being fragmented into vassals and independant states. They're something you can overcome with patience and I personally enjoy the factions as they are. Diversity being the spice of life, Ming is a nice change from generic nation forming; HOL > NED, ENG > GBR etc one I hope to continue enjoying regardless of any future tweaks/changes Paradox may or may not decide to make.

 

[mkhuh]

For example, Ming is the only nation that cannot build above forcelimits if it becomes necessary. At the same time, they suffer from having that force limit drastically reduced if the governing faction changes, which will then often massively damage the income/expenditure balance.

That's the internal squabbling mechanic that adds challenge to the game. Can you internally lobby to get enough funding for the fleet or the army? Etc. That's the challenge and Ming usually has plenty of $$$ to handle these changes.

If there were a way that factions could come to affect any nation (probably different ones depending on situation and nation), or there were a way for Ming to lose the factions then they would be more sensible. Even if there were a way to limit the effect of the factions, or get to a position to reduce the limitations they place on you it would be good.

I think that makes sense, but not right away. I do think that after 200 years or so a country ought to be able to become more unified and managable if ruled right (I mean if it can westernize, surely it can rein in the factions!)

 

[mkhuh]

What you said...

Indeed

 

[colinljx]

Any devs thought of creating a "faction established" event that fires whenever a civilized nation gets over 20 / 30 / 40 cored provinces? If the purpose of faction is to limit the Big Nations like Ming, same thing should be done for every large nations as well. For example, a integrated HRE should suffer from internal troubles in the same way like China/Ming.

 

[unmerged(75192)]

edit: er didn't realize how old this is. I'm a retard.