An in-game way to get rid of Chinese factions?

[bitparity]

Tried changing governments, nope. I thought westernizing would do it, notta. Then tried becoming the Chinese nation after Manchu was annexed by somebody else, and that just resulted in a game crash.

I'm assuming Manchu imperial administration was in there to allow you to get rid of factions since if you load from a scenario Manchu China has no factions, but doing that in-game doesn't seem to get rid of factions, and when I try to reload that save gameit crashes (already posted in bug reports).

Is this the right way to get rid of factions, or is there another way I'm not noticing?

 

[Darkrenown]

There's no game way to get rid of them, Ming has factions and is stuck with them.

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

On this, I've noticed other countries with the government type Celestial Kingdom, is that WAD?

 

[knul]

On this, I've noticed other countries with the government type Celestial Kingdom, is that WAD?

I've seen this as well, but only with revolter states that broke off from Ming. Maybe that's why they had the Celestial Kingdom government?

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

I've seen this as well, but only with revolter states that broke off from Ming. Maybe that's why they had the Celestial Kingdom government?

Yeah, that's what happened in my game, and I suspected it might be a bug...

 

[Darkrenown]

Shouldn't be possible. Check common/governments.txt and see if there's a bit like:

celestial_empire = {
	monarchy = yes
	valid_for_new_country = no

Could be something that didn't make the release version, or there could be a bug where new nations get it anyway.

 

[Duskey]

I can confirm the Celestial Empire for Ming offspring too. Thinking, I THINK I might have seen it with someone else as well, but it was some time ago so I can't be sure.

 

[Najs]

There's no game way to get rid of them, Ming has factions and is stuck with them.

Isn't that pretty unfair, like punishing Ming for being Ming?

 

[knul]

Isn't that pretty unfair, like punishing Ming for being Ming?

That's always been the case. For instance in previous versions Confucianism had a -50% tax income penalty. Without penalties Ming is unhistorically overpowered.

 

[Olaus Petrus]

Isn't that pretty unfair, like punishing Ming for being Ming?

Playing as Ming is still quite easy even with the limitations. Personally I like the flavour which the factions bring to the game.

 

[Noctus]

S
Could be something that didn't make the release version, or there could be a bug where new nations get it anyway.

In my current Teutonic Order game i have met a mongol "Celestial Empire". It is the yellow one with the scribbkle on their coat-of-arms (Oirat Horde ?), which name eludes me atm. - I am 90% sure it is a breakaway from Ming, as 1 or 2 game sessions before when loading the game i saw a complete ming in china on the country selection screen which had expanded a bit into siberia, but later when i fought my way through the Golden Horde i met them, instead of ming.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Without penalties Ming is unhistorically overpowered.

No, it's their neighbors who are underpowered, take Dai Viet for example, they can beat up Kublai's army and remain independent from Mongol invation, and they can spawn a grand rebel army which beat up Ming's garrison in Vietnam and "convinced" Ming not to attack them ever again, but in the game, they just kinda get swallowed when Ming steps in with "Restore old border" and Champa followed

 

[Najs]

That's always been the case. For instance in previous versions Confucianism had a -50% tax income penalty. Without penalties Ming is unhistorically overpowered.

That's what I was hinting at. The devs claimed that they wanted to stop punishing Ming for being Ming, and introduced the new faction system to keep them somewhat checked. Whether it was a good solution or not, it seems that either will Ming always be punished for being Ming or be overpowered.

 

[knul]

That's what I was hinting at. The devs claimed that they wanted to stop punishing Ming for being Ming, and introduced the new faction system to keep them somewhat checked. Whether it was a good solution or not, it seems that either will Ming always be punished for being Ming or be overpowered.

In an ideal game, all countries share the same game mechanics which will make Ming balanced. However, I can see that it's very difficult to do that. In EU3 nations have internal dynamics (stability, domestic policies, NI, revolt risk, Legitimacy, etcetera) that can make a country weaker or stronger compared to raw size and economic power. The Faction system is an extention to that system of internal dynamics.

It would be nice that internal politics would matter for all countries, so that Ming isn't singled out in that regard. However, it's the question whether have more internal political modelling is suitable for the Europa Universalis series (it slides the series more to Victoria, for example).

 

[unmerged(144654)]

I quite like how various regions have found a system to rule tracts of land. France has vassalized its smaller neighbours, the HRE has various states competing for the title of Emperor, the Russians and Hordes are caught up in a battle of colonization and tributes. The ming have kept the internal power struggle under control by giving officia roles to the factions, and Japan has the Shogun system, which I havent figured out yet.

 

[lordkestrel]

Is Ming prevented from changing culture?

 

[herrhals]

The problem is the factions do not apply to AI control of Ming. Ming now gobbles up SE China quicker than ever and is declaring war on Poland in 1475 through a common border.
Instead of toning Ming down, DW now just turns it into a MEGA MEGA blob. At least it's not western tech...

 

[deanwebb]

The problem is the factions do not apply to AI control of Ming. Ming now gobbles up SE China quicker than ever and is declaring war on Poland in 1475 through a common border.
Instead of toning Ming down, DW now just turns it into a MEGA MEGA blob. At least it's not western tech...

Unless you hack your savegame file...

 

[johnnyb]

The fun part is when the MEGA MEGA blob collapses. In my latest game, MING was at lithuania by 1460, and a 10 province minor less than 50 years later.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

I have seen Oirats taking the Celestial Empire government form. I had assumed this was through them being vassalised by Ming - due to the bug where AI can annex/vassalise hordes - although there are other possibilities.


I thought I saw something in the DD that suggested that Ming would be able to get away from the factions eventually, but it appears I am wrong. Does this mean that in the event Ming were to be conquered, and rebel from under the conqueror that Ming would get the factions again? I'm not sure that Ming should be stuck with the factions forever, as I feel there should be a way to get away from them. I'm not sure if this should be an event chain, decision chain or be related to a government change. After all, I can't see a Bureaucratic Despotism Ming still having the other factions, or a Theocracy not being Temple dominated. In these case should the factions be disabled or removed?

Ironic really that we get this being said in the DD:

The solution so far has been to give China a modifier that simply penalizes it for being China. We figured we could do better than that.

and then in this thread:

There's no game way to get rid of them, Ming has factions and is stuck with them.