An extremely valid flaw in 1.12.

[dbruser]

I actually agree that religious rebels spawning on an unprotected COR should probably be changed, especially with how the AI handles rebels, maybe either A) make the COR spawn on a fort province or a province protected by a fort, or possibly make event religious rebels spawn in a non-COR province.

Additionally I believe there is currently a bug where some rebels from events insta-converting provinces even if there is an army/fort there that arent supposed to instaconvert provinces that a couple specific events do (I think maybe War of the Roses trigger might do that for one)

 

[Tom013]

I still maintain that all this talk about forts and how the OP should have protected himself better to be minor compared to the real issue that is event spawn religious rebels being able to convert your center of reformation with little to no time to respond or warning. Really, "should have protected better" is not a terrible great argument when the threat was sudden and not foreshadowed. It is one's own fault if they let important provinces unguarded when the revolt risk is close to 100%. But event revolts are a different matter as they are really sudden. I like them as they shake things a bit, but it is not great when they can have such a massive impact (weaken the reformation massively) without any time to respond.

Can we say he should have protected better? Yes. Absolutely. The OP certainly made a bad call there. Even with the random event rebels, that seems reasonable enough to say.

Still, I agree that this is entirely secondary to the fact that a center of reformation getting destroyed in a single month by a single set of rebels is bad for the reformation and bad for the game. A wimpy reformation makes for a less compelling EU4 playthrough, and the method by which this occurred is simply not fun. It's nearly impossible to convert a COR (while it exists) in any normal way, but rebels can do it in 30 days. It's silly and, at best, adds nothing to the game.

The insta-flip on religion should be reworked in general. At the very least, retaking the province within a certain amount of time should reverse (or prevent) the process.

 

[WhiskyGlen]

I know he said that, but it's ridiculous. 200 moneys isn't much at all. I'm certain he could be earning a lot more money than that if he cut other expenses. What's he paying for advisers? Is he leaving military maintenance at maximum while at peace? He should have adjusted his fort placement before flipping religions.

Could I have made some more ducats... Probably. I could have nerfed my land maintenance. Of course, if France declares war on me, my entire stack is wiped in one blow as there would be no time to recover all that morale. I could have also mothballed the forts I had, but again, when I unmothball them, they take forever to recover and thus become almost useless. Especially if the walls become breached. I could have deleted the forts like I did with the one on (I believe) Finistre, or whatever the far west province is called. But then my entire nation would be defenseless should war begin. I will agree that I should have mothballed my fleet. I give you all that one.

I had no advisers. I cannot afford advisers anymore like I used to be able to. Although that's not fair since I never played Brittany pre-patch.

 

[WhiskyGlen]

Well if I'm able to buy a fort as a 3 province combined 8 base tax mecklenburg, he should be able to buy one as Brittany unless hes wasting lots of ducats. (can pay for upkeep if I take another province)

Wars are expensive when an army is trying to recover. Either use mercenaries and get killed on wages or use regular troops and get killed on monthly maintenance.

 

[WhiskyGlen]

Still, I agree that this is entirely secondary to the fact that a center of reformation getting destroyed in a single month by a single set of rebels is bad for the reformation and bad for the game.

I may not have been fully clear, but it wasn't a single month. It was a single day. As soon as the event triggered. With 30 days, I could have got my army there in time. A fix, perhaps, would be the ability to choose where the center of reformation is placed in your nation?

 

[Snugwow]

The issue here is that some rebels spawned by event/disaster will instantly occupy the province they spawn in. Even if there was a fort built on top of the CoR it would have been occupied in 1 day by these event rebels. This is a quite unbalanced oversight based on how important forts are now with preventing the occupation of provinces.

That said. I think that religious rebels converting on occupation at this stage of the game in absurd. Not to mention the fact that destroying a CoR so easily from rebels just cheapens the reformation mechanics and only takes away from the game.

 

[208]

Maybe, if it was that essential to everything, you should have kept your army on the Center of reformation?

I've had an army in the same province as event-spawned rebels, and the rebels can STILL (sometimes, not always) take the province instantly before fighting my army. I've also seen them instantly siege provinces with a fort, though not mine, so I can't be sure if the fort was mothballed at the time or not.

 

[aplsin]

I may not have been fully clear, but it wasn't a single month. It was a single day. As soon as the event triggered. With 30 days, I could have got my army there in time. A fix, perhaps, would be the ability to choose where the center of reformation is placed in your nation?

If they're instantly sieging that sounds like a bug and I agree it's stupid, I thought you where talking about the 30 day siege.

 

[SilasW]

Yeah if their insta sieging and not having to go a full tick then something obviously wrong.

 

[spinoza013]

The flaw is thinking you can change the state religion and not expect trouble. What is a centre of reformation other than a 'heretic' church with some priests and a small congregation? They'd be easy pickings for an angry mob to slaughter without state military protection. With your protestant priests burning in the city square who's going to spread the word?
You want to force convert your populace you should be prepared to protect your messengers.

 

[EvilKnievel82]

The on-siege-won mechanic definitly needs to be changed at least for rebels and natives. For rebels the instant effect from religious or separatist rebels should be removed. For example there could be a timer that does the conversion or +10 years separatism if the province stays occupied for 6 months or a year.

For natives the system is pretty bugged and leads to neverending siege cycles with a "frozen" colonist if the colony is finished during siege:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...e-stuck-in-endless-loop.862955/#post-19471833
This happened to me three times already during a spain colonial game and only once did the colonial nation ever feel the need to send troops. Twice I had to build troops in another colony in north america to send them to south america to get my colonist back.

 

[Anthedon]

^

The province needing to remain occupied for x amount of time seems to be the most sensible solution (and easy to implement?).

 

[spinoza013]

In the case of changing state religion surely the state are the rebels?

 

[Rudolph]

There are enough straw men in this topic to feed the worlds population of cows, and even Johan himself jumped on it.

 

[Rubidium]

I actually agree that religious rebels spawning on an unprotected COR should probably be changed, especially with how the AI handles rebels, maybe either A) make the COR spawn on a fort province or a province protected by a fort, or possibly make event religious rebels spawn in a non-COR province.

Additionally I believe there is currently a bug where some rebels from events insta-converting provinces even if there is an army/fort there that arent supposed to instaconvert provinces that a couple specific events do (I think maybe War of the Roses trigger might do that for one)

One could also imagine a having a CoR count as a mini-fort (in the same way as a capital does). It is, after all, going to have a very zealous population with high morale (consider how e.g. Zwingli mobilized the population for war). As an added bonus, it would make it both harder and more rewarding to capture such provinces for your own.

 

[davsim]

The insta sieging rebels are totally ridiculous. End of story.

 

[Tom013]

I may not have been fully clear, but it wasn't a single month. It was a single day. As soon as the event triggered. With 30 days, I could have got my army there in time. A fix, perhaps, would be the ability to choose where the center of reformation is placed in your nation?

In that case, it's even more ridiculous and even LESS fun. Though I still think even with a 30-day cycle this whole insta-conversion thing should be re-thought.

The flaw is thinking you can change the state religion and not expect trouble. What is a centre of reformation other than a 'heretic' church with some priests and a small congregation? They'd be easy pickings for an angry mob to slaughter without state military protection. With your protestant priests burning in the city square who's going to spread the word?
You want to force convert your populace you should be prepared to protect your messengers.

As Wiz says, realism arguments are useless because every perspective has one. Here's the realism counter-argument: What is a recently converted province, if not a province filled with adherents of the new faith, who are also likely to be the most firebrand? Any rebels that entered that province would likely come from without and face stiff resistance amongst the population that had newly and wholly committed to this new faith in this, its heartland.

We could play this game all day, but the more important thing is that the insta-siege-insta-convert is INCONSISTENT with the other rules of the game and adds NOTHING to the entertainment value. This is only exacerbated by the fact that this was a Center of Reformation.

 

[Benjamintf1]

One could also imagine a having a CoR count as a mini-fort (in the same way as a capital does). It is, after all, going to have a very zealous population with high morale (consider how e.g. Zwingli mobilized the population for war). As an added bonus, it would make it both harder and more rewarding to capture such provinces for your own.

Maybe a capital no control kind of fort. It would also help ai cors too

 

[Imgran]

Johan if you're still reading this: How hard would it be for event-based religious revolters to spawn only in provinces that shared their own damn religion???????

This alone would have headed this whole problem off at the pass since we know what religion the CoR is and anything to flip that CoR is a different religion. Catholic zealot instaspawns on a zealously Protestant province is a little wacky to begin with.

IF Catholic zealots could only spawn in Catholic provinces, not only does that solve this whole problem it matches the way ordinary revolters now work. That way the first revolter province simply becomes a base of operations for the revolt and counts towards flipping the nation if the rebels break the province, and if they want to get anywhere else and start flipping religions they have to march there, and the player definitely has the time to get to the scene and do something to prevent the CoR from going down.

Personally I think that's about 500% more fair, since you had time to avoid the problem and since you didn't it's a lot more reasonable to say the player deserves what he gets.

 

[grisamentum]

All of these coy answers are awful. You should all feel ashamed of yourselves.

Cover your provinces in forts and don't uncheck their maintenance, and/or wait to accept the popup? How the hell is that a good solution? That's not a solution, that's a human-only workaround and snobbishly implying that it should be standard play is an awful attitude to take.

I have watched AI centers of reformation disappear to rebels multiple times now. It is bullshit. I have watched AI absolutely implode to all manner of rebels. The new fort mechanics and the previous rebel on-siege-won mechanics do not work well together and they MUST be changed. Either the fort system needs to be adjusted to accommodate rebellion, or, better, the rebels themselves should be adjusted to function decently in the new fort environment. At the minimum, the on-siege-won effects need to be altered, and religious rebels actually force-converting provinces was bullshit even before 1.12, now it's just downright awful and needs to go. Whether it's used to carpet-convert yourself in a gamey way to centers of reformation miraculously vanishing any time a hamstrung AI faces the religious disaster, it's bad.

And again, stop with the snarky answers, this isn't some puzzle-heavy RPG forum.

Post of the year.

Yet another tally in the column of "why I stopped playing EU4." Massive changes introduced but with only half the necessary supporting changes made at the same time.