An extremely valid flaw in 1.12.

[Zak Preston]

IMHO full fort maintenance is way too expensive for small and medium-sized nations who are:

• not controlling a tradenode
• not sitting in end node
• situated outside of Europe
• have no gold mines

 

[BRK]

Perhaps the occupation percentage for unfortified provinces could be reduced. Currently, a siege in a province with no fort starts off at 100%, meaning the province flips control a month later. That could be changed to 25% or higher, so you still have time to rally your troops from elsewhere. It's not like provinces without forts had *no* defensive measures whatsoever.

 

[Anthedon]

It is obvious that something bad happening when a rebel army takes a province is a holdover from when every province had forts. Now that some provinces take a very small time to be occupied, this probably ought to be tweaked.

This is still happening after two hotfixes/1.13?

 

[yerm]

All of these coy answers are awful. You should all feel ashamed of yourselves.

Cover your provinces in forts and don't uncheck their maintenance, and/or wait to accept the popup? How the hell is that a good solution? That's not a solution, that's a human-only workaround and snobbishly implying that it should be standard play is an awful attitude to take.

I have watched AI centers of reformation disappear to rebels multiple times now. It is bullshit. I have watched AI absolutely implode to all manner of rebels. The new fort mechanics and the previous rebel on-siege-won mechanics do not work well together and they MUST be changed. Either the fort system needs to be adjusted to accommodate rebellion, or, better, the rebels themselves should be adjusted to function decently in the new fort environment. At the minimum, the on-siege-won effects need to be altered, and religious rebels actually force-converting provinces was bullshit even before 1.12, now it's just downright awful and needs to go. Whether it's used to carpet-convert yourself in a gamey way to centers of reformation miraculously vanishing any time a hamstrung AI faces the religious disaster, it's bad.

And again, stop with the snarky answers, this isn't some puzzle-heavy RPG forum.

 

[ywxiao]

I kind of understand how the OP feels in a way. The current system is ver unfriendly if you don't know how to take the easy way out.

He's been butting heads with big boys so probably don't have all that much ducats.

I had a similar situation in my Austria game, except it was Sweden that lost its center of reformation. I was counting on the Swedes to convert the north, but instead watched them get picked apart by Norway, Denmark, Muscovy, and even England because they are heretics.

IMO defenders of the faith should be able to revive centers of reformation.

 

[hitman_ma2]

doesnt matter if he had a fort there or not. i had that same event happen to me and the rebels sieged the province as soon as they spawned. fort was active and full garrison.

 

[fred.erick]

All of these coy answers are awful. You should all feel ashamed of yourselves.

Cover your provinces in forts and don't uncheck their maintenance, and/or wait to accept the popup? How the hell is that a good solution? That's not a solution, that's a human-only workaround and snobbishly implying that it should be standard play is an awful attitude to take.

I have watched AI centers of reformation disappear to rebels multiple times now. It is bullshit. I have watched AI absolutely implode to all manner of rebels. The new fort mechanics and the previous rebel on-siege-won mechanics do not work well together and they MUST be changed. Either the fort system needs to be adjusted to accommodate rebellion, or, better, the rebels themselves should be adjusted to function decently in the new fort environment. At the minimum, the on-siege-won effects need to be altered, and religious rebels actually force-converting provinces was bullshit even before 1.12, now it's just downright awful and needs to go. Whether it's used to carpet-convert yourself in a gamey way to centers of reformation miraculously vanishing any time a hamstrung AI faces the religious disaster, it's bad.

And again, stop with the snarky answers, this isn't some puzzle-heavy RPG forum.

You sir, deserve the "making sense" award. I'd call it "Common Sense" but that's already taken.

 

[sub-woofer]

"MUST" seems too strong for me, but other than that, I truly agree. A meaningful solution would be much better than a borderline exploit strategy.
Also, I think the devs may have just overlooked it, as It is not common for the rebels to hit a CoR.

 

[WhiskyGlen]

Sit at peace for a few years with minimal maintenance and save up money. Or fight a war and take as much money as you can from everyone. Or take loans to build the forts and pay them back later (what I tend to do). There are plenty of ways to get the money for forts

So you want me to take 200 ducats worth of loans (about three or four loans at this point) to buy a fort? You do realize the interest in that will probably be a full ducat per month starting out. Actually, at 4% interest, it should be .8 ducat per month. I can't afford that. And to do it twice? I'd never get out of debt. As for war, who am I supposed to take money from? This isn't Sweden carpet sieging Muscovy. This is Brittany either fighting two or three province nations (when I am able to take the coastline) or else fighting France/England to where no matter how many sieges I lay, I will lose money to army maintenance. Best I can hope for is 10% war reparations which I take as much as I can.

Centres of reformation have always disappeared when you convert them.
Religious rebels have always converted provinces they siege.
Provinces in a Forts zone of control are protected from the bad effects whilst the fort stands.
You made the mistake of not having forts covering all your provinces and not having any protection in your centre of reformation.

1) Yes, that is true, but you always had about a year to get your army to the province to take said fort. In this case, it insta-converted. Even 30 days for a normal siege would have been enough for me to get my army there.
2) See point above.
3) This appears to be debatable. But it seems every time I have a province insta-sieged, I get the bad effects from it falling (like 10 years of nationalism). But I cannot confirm that as I do not remember 100% for sure.
4) I did have protection in that I had forts at my borders to protect my inner provinces from invasion. How would I know a random AI group would instasiege it?

It is something that has always been possible and happened, you had the option to prevent it, you chose not to.

Next time, I will put forts in every single province and go -10 ducats per month until I go bankrupt then.

You shouldn't have spent it on becoming papal controller then. Take religious ideas, try to get cardinals, improve relations with the papal states and rake in the influence; sit at +3 stability the entire game for free. It is far stronger than any other religion if you can do that.

I have to take quantity ideas when starting as Brittany. I don't see any way around that unless you forge a strong alliance with France, but usually they wind up wanting your provinces and break it some point or another.

Perhaps the occupation percentage for unfortified provinces could be reduced. Currently, a siege in a province with no fort starts off at 100%, meaning the province flips control a month later. That could be changed to 25% or higher, so you still have time to rally your troops from elsewhere. It's not like provinces without forts had *no* defensive measures whatsoever.

When rebels spawn on a province, it's instasieged in my experience. The 30 day window would have been enough for me to stop them.

All of these coy answers are awful. You should all feel ashamed of yourselves.

Cover your provinces in forts and don't uncheck their maintenance, and/or wait to accept the popup? How the hell is that a good solution? That's not a solution, that's a human-only workaround and snobbishly implying that it should be standard play is an awful attitude to take.

I have watched AI centers of reformation disappear to rebels multiple times now. It is bullshit. I have watched AI absolutely implode to all manner of rebels. The new fort mechanics and the previous rebel on-siege-won mechanics do not work well together and they MUST be changed. Either the fort system needs to be adjusted to accommodate rebellion, or, better, the rebels themselves should be adjusted to function decently in the new fort environment. At the minimum, the on-siege-won effects need to be altered, and religious rebels actually force-converting provinces was bullshit even before 1.12, now it's just downright awful and needs to go. Whether it's used to carpet-convert yourself in a gamey way to centers of reformation miraculously vanishing any time a hamstrung AI faces the religious disaster, it's bad.

And again, stop with the snarky answers, this isn't some puzzle-heavy RPG forum.

Best post of the thread right here.

 

[jesias]

Fort in Armor would prevent it and you wouldn't need these in Normendie and Anjou so it would repay in 17 years but I agree that rebels converting CoR shouldn't happen.

 

[yerm]

Fort in Armor would prevent it and you wouldn't need these in Normendie and Anjou so it would repay in 17 years but I agree that rebels converting CoR shouldn't happen.

What happens if the rebels spawn when he's at war with France and the fort has been sieged? Or if the fort is mothballed? Or if this was AI Brittany and not a human? If this was a nation like Norway?

MAYBE it's doable in this case, that doesn't change bad design overall! I'm actually ok with rebels converting a CoR, but only if doing so = enforcing their demands and converting the parent country.

 

[Tacticus101]

So you want me to take 200 ducats worth of loans (about three or four loans at this point) to buy a fort? You do realize the interest in that will probably be a full ducat per month starting out. Actually, at 4% interest, it should be .8 ducat per month. I can't afford that. And to do it twice? I'd never get out of debt. As for war, who am I supposed to take money from? This isn't Sweden carpet sieging Muscovy. This is Brittany either fighting two or three province nations (when I am able to take the coastline) or else fighting France/England to where no matter how many sieges I lay, I will lose money to army maintenance. Best I can hope for is 10% war reparations which I take as much as I can.

Im not saying you have to do anything, just that its what I do. I find forts essential this patch and I don't like have provinces not protected my them, so if I need to build them I take loans. You can do whatever you want, there are plenty of different theories of how to play, some people even suggest building no forts and spending the money on troops instead. If you prefer it you can save up, put your troops on low maintenance and sit there doing nothing; it might take 20 years at speed 5 but it will get you the money you need.

But to say you cant afford to build forts is entirely your decision, even if it is economically the right one.

As for money, I usually find that small HRE states will give 50-100 ducats in peace deals (remember they can take loans) and more for larger ones. Any war I get into that pulls in a small nation, I will siege them and force them to peace out for as much money as I can get. It is not difficult to get money, you don't need to siege Muscovy to do it. Though if you do end up fighting France, just the wargoal will be enough to take money, you don't need to 100% siege them.

1) Yes, that is true, but you always had about a year to get your army to the province to take said fort. In this case, it insta-converted. Even 30 days for a normal siege would have been enough for me to get my army there.
2) See point above.
3) This appears to be debatable. But it seems every time I have a province insta-sieged, I get the bad effects from it falling (like 10 years of nationalism). But I cannot confirm that as I do not remember 100% for sure.
4) I did have protection in that I had forts at my borders to protect my inner provinces from invasion. How would I know a random AI group would instasiege it?

Maybe, if it was that essential to everything, you should have kept your army on the Center of reformation? You have to be prepared for unexpected events, claiming there is some terrible flaw with the game because something preventable happened doesn't change that.

Anyway, you don't forgo an army because it costs too much, why do you forgo forts? They are just as important.

Next time, I will put forts in every single province and go -10 ducats per month until I go bankrupt then.

Don't exaggerate. Like I said, you can cover every province you own in that screenshot with 3 forts. That is 600 gold of loans assuming you have no money (which you do), 2 ducats of interest a month, not even as much as your forts are already costing to maintain.

If you wanted to, you could get away with 2 forts to cover almost all your territory (more than you have covered now as well). In your current screenshot that is 250 ducats in loans with your existing treasury and will save you in fort maintenance as much as it costs in interest whilst giving you better protection.

I have to take quantity ideas when starting as Brittany. I don't see any way around that unless you forge a strong alliance with France, but usually they wind up wanting your provinces and break it some point or another.

Last time I played Brittany (last patch), I took exploration and Religious as my first two ideas. Though by the point in the game you are at I had killed France and taken all their territory, so I was obviously richer. I think you are far better off killing France early as Brittany if you intend to take any territory in the French region, they end up hating you otherwise. But that's just my preference.

 

[clockworkBabbag]

I've had rebels spawn on provinces without forts and not instantly occupy them.

I've also had rebels spawn and instantly occupy, and there is no consistency that I can see as to what causes it - maybe there's a difference between event rebels and ones from normal unrest, but I'm pretty sure I've had event rebels spawn that don't instantly occupy provinces. And I was noticing this even before 1.12 as well, so this is simply not something caused by the new fort system.

The real question I have here is why you were getting religious rebels spawning on a religious center of reformation - don't non-true faith religious rebel events generally require some kind of unrest when determining which province they spawn on? A center of reformation you created shouldn't have any wrong-religion unrest at all.

 

[jesias]

What happens if the rebels spawn when he's at war with France and the fort has been sieged? Or if the fort is mothballed? Or if this was AI Brittany and not a human? If this was a nation like Norway?

MAYBE it's doable in this case, that doesn't change bad design overall! I'm actually ok with rebels converting a CoR, but only if doing so = enforcing their demands and converting the parent country.

I was just pointing out that fort placement was not optimal. Maybe it would be better if rebels' occupation effects weren't applied instantly but after some time like 6 months or a year.

 

[Heatth]

All this talk about fort is moot. I agree the OP should have protected better agaisnt rebels, but I don't think this is the main issue here. The main issue is that religious rebels can spawn in a reformation center by event and completely wreck the reformation for the whole game. I am not against rebels by event, but reformation centers should probably be immune to them to avoid such things.

When rebels spawn on a province, it's instasieged in my experience. The 30 day window would have been enough for me to stop them.

Wait, since when? I am reasonably sure this is not the case at all. I know certain event rebels do instasiege (regardless of fort, I believe), but I don't think religious rebels are among them. I am pretty sure you should have had the 30 days widow. Are you sure that wasn't the case?

 

[balmung60]

Regardless, it shouldn't be that easy for a relatively small rebellion to gimp the Reformation like that. Perhaps Centers of Reformation could only be temporarily suppressed by rebels, but not be destroyed by them.

 

[Tacticus101]

All this talk about fort is moot. I agree the OP should have protected better agaisnt rebels, but I don't think this is the main issue here. The main issue is that religious rebels can spawn in a reformation center by event and completely wreck the reformation for the whole game. I am not against rebels by event, but reformation centers should probably be immune to them to avoid such things.

I agree with this. The Centre of reformation shouldn't have religious rebels spawning on it and shouldn't disappear if they siege the province.

A way to fix it might be to simply make centers of reformation appear on the capital rather than a random province, it automatically has a fort and I don't believe rebels spawn on it, plus it would solve a few of the other issues.

 

[yerm]

Wait, since when? I am reasonably sure this is not the case at all. I know certain event rebels do instasiege (regardless of fort, I believe), but I don't think religious rebels are among them. I am pretty sure you should have had the 30 days widow. Are you sure that wasn't the case?

I believe this is only the case if they spawn in an area not within the protective area of a fort. I am not sure they insta-siege if a fort ZoC is in range, and am reasonably sure they only insta-siege a fort if it is specific to that rebellion (eg the war of the roses spawns with a won rebel siege) and I do not remember in this case if it applies on-siege effects or not.

I would go the total opposite route. Religious rebels should not be able to force-convert a region. I mean, my absurdly large early 16th century standing armies can't do it, why should rabble? No, instead, rebels should convert when they enforce demands from winning said rebellion, and if this is a problem or potential exploit, either change what acceptance does and make it different from enforced demands like it used to be or just prevent players from accepting the demands of religious rebels just like exists with pretenders.

Meanwhile, it's too hard to remove centers the opposite way. Enforce religion is absolutely stupid expensive; deus vult should allow it at 100% no matter what. The center itself is hard locked from conversion now. So, if I want to convert away a CoR that didn't spawn in a free city, chances are the best way to do that is to herd zealots onto it? Dumb.

 

[eon47]

My army is only 18,000 and my navy 12 ships with six of them being barques, three being transports, and three being early carracks. I'd love naval supremacy someday!

This is unrelated, but I'd get rid of those heavy ships. Your navy is nowhere near big enough to fight anyone of consequence, so the maintenance spent on them is a waste of gold. Wait until you can afford the ships to curb-stomp people in style before going for naval supremacy.

 

[Outrider]

This is unrelated, but I'd get rid of those heavy ships. Your navy is nowhere near big enough to fight anyone of consequence, so the maintenance spent on them is a waste of gold. Wait until you can afford the ships to curb-stomp people in style before going for naval supremacy.

The barques too.

Given province trade-power in the current version, 6 trade ships won't even pay for themselves at peace time and at war you'll have to send them home. The only useful boats he has that is useful is the transports, given that he has disconnected territory.
The maintenance on all that could be used for more troops or the missing forts.

Doesn't really solve the issue of sieged-on-fire events religious rebels though. Don't have access to the event files right now to hunt through for likely offenders, but I'm curious which exact event it was.