An Europe without Rome, its an Europe without christianity?

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Kazanov

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So, on mi last Imperium Universalis game, far after i lost the game, the etruscans destroyed the romans and after that, they expanded, formed Etruria, expanding to the Galia, annexing Germania, and expanding to what its Russia today, never going to greek and eastern asian lands.



So, imagine this timeline, without Rome conquering judea, ( whats its Babilonian clay now), and focusing only in europe... what would happen to christianity?, a new european religion would be created?, the ancient etruscan religion would be the dominant one? european paganism would be predominant until our times? or the influence of christianity would destroy the ancient european religions anyways?
 

Gurkhal

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Odds are that people would still be losing faith with the traditional ethno-religions and turn towards mystery cults, which to my knowledge were already spreading before Rome's dominance anyway. Thus they may turn to Mithras or Isis, but in the end I don't think that its very likely that the traditional polytheistic traditions with a communal focus would have been able to stand their ground against the Cult of Isis than against Christianity with their promises of an individual salvation and an individual relation with the divine. It would probably not have been as sharp a rift as with a fully monotheistic religion like Christianity but not likely things would have gone unchanged.

Just because the Christians would not have been a force, which really isn't certain even in this scenario, don't mean that all the other competitors for whom would replace the Olympians (to attempt to make a shorthand of the multitude of traditional religious practices from the ancient world) would have given up the game and gone home. Essentially someone would have toppled Zeus, regardless if it would have been Yahawe, the Manichean God, Isis, Mithras or someone else.
 

Graf Zeppelin

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Hey, someone wrote my name all over Turkey :D
 

Graf Zeppelin

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Metanoia

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Before the Roman Empire choose to enact Christianity first as a tolerated and then as a state religion, countries in the outskirts of the Roman sphere were also not merely interested, but fully embraced the religion - Georgia and Armenia come to mind. A very vivid discussion all over the Mediterranean was going on before Constantine's edict and there is a possibility that facing repercussions and having already amassed a great amount of theological coherence, pockets of Christianity would have swayed other remote countries to convert. As a result - just like in actual history - newly founded states by the great migrators might have adopted a "heretical" Christianity to establish themselves as different, ruling and separate from the masses they conquer - think the Vandals in Africa or pretty much any neighbor of Rome: they all embraced Arianism, a "heresy" of Christianity. Of course the scale would have been smaller, but there is a good chance that the religion would have "conquered" at least a good part of North Africa, the middle east and Europe before the advent of Islam, which might have ended the faith.
 

diegosimeone

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Christianity was formed as an eastern religion, so surely you'd need eastern traits.

Christianity also came to rise because the whole surrounding of its birthplace was Rome. It was irrelevant that the name and place was the Roman Empire. Any massive empire that seemed ruthless and oppressive to the common folk of the conquered would do.

Now, in your map, there's no such thing. There's Babylon, which I would assume has a similar type of religion. So what you need in your timeline is maybe the fall of Babylon and its conquest from Egypt or @Graf Zeppelin , though ideally it would be Epirus, Hellas or Etruria as they're closer to Rome in terms of culture. But both seem farfetched at the time.

Could Christianity (or a similar religion) pop up in Etruria, Hellas or Epirus? Highly unlikely. It would require massive waves of immigrations from the East.

What could emerge would be a similar minded religion, but with Germanic (most probably) or Celtic elements, from within Etruria's borders. But Christiniaty spread because Rome was so dominant in the European world that everyone who followed wanted to be like Rome. And Christianity was something that could link them with that Roman allure, so every new random kingdom wanted to also be Christian to be part of this group.

Your Etruria is vast, but not rich enough and has no link with a great ancient civilization. Other than itself. Only Babylon has this to an extent, the rest of your big empires/states are not expanded well enough to attract influence from other peoples.

And the four pillars of the rise of Christianity was simply following the complete opposites of the four pillars of the Roman Empire, that by the time Christianity was emerging, there was no physical force on earth that could undo their Empire. Chrsitianity came and flipped Rome upside down. These four pillars of Rome were:
Strength (Christianity preaches Weakness, whereas Rome had Force, Army, Violence)
Wealth (Christianity preaches "mental wealth" and that material goods are meaningless)
Science (Christianity preaches "I am the word, follow me and don't search for anything else" and "ignorance is bliss")
Eroticism (Christianity preaches Fasting and Prudence, while Rome celebrated Arts, Beauty, Sex, Sports - mostly in the nude I remind you - etc)

Based on this, you can easily see that any vast and invincible empire could have this revolutionary internal uprising that will turn it upside down. But it'd be different and probably not survive if its place of birth was not self-sufficient. So if it starts in your Babylon and then Lidya or Egypt sweeps them through, it probably won't survive. Christianity needed the stablity that Rome provided to grow and mature as a religion and gain a formal following other than a bunch of angry mobs in urban areas.
 

Kazanov

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I'm modding this outcome to Ck2, and im planning to do a big mega-campaign, so your responses are very useful to me.

Odds are that people would still be losing faith with the traditional ethno-religions and turn towards mystery cults, which to my knowledge were already spreading before Rome's dominance anyway. Thus they may turn to Mithras or Isis, but in the end I don't think that its very likely that the traditional polytheistic traditions with a communal focus would have been able to stand their ground against the Cult of Isis than against Christianity with their promises of an individual salvation and an individual relation with the divine. It would probably not have been as sharp a rift as with a fully monotheistic religion like Christianity but not likely things would have gone unchanged.

Just because the Christians would not have been a force, which really isn't certain even in this scenario, don't mean that all the other competitors for whom would replace the Olympians (to attempt to make a shorthand of the multitude of traditional religious practices from the ancient world) would have given up the game and gone home. Essentially someone would have toppled Zeus, regardless if it would have been Yahawe, the Manichean God, Isis, Mithras or someone else.
I was thinking about the Mazdaki faith taking over Babylon, as i'll be make smaller the empires at the aftermath of this mod (300 AD) to the start of my ck2 mod (500 AD) because of the big migrations (but the germanics were nearly wiped out by the etruscans). Maybe i can mod the Isis cult starting to spread over Lydia, or something, but im interested anyways of making christianity a part of the history, as its a powerful religion and ck2 mechanics are deeply tied to it.
Hey, someone wrote my name all over Turkey :D
Over here its a beautiful name for females.

Before the Roman Empire choose to enact Christianity first as a tolerated and then as a state religion, countries in the outskirts of the Roman sphere were also not merely interested, but fully embraced the religion - Georgia and Armenia come to mind. A very vivid discussion all over the Mediterranean was going on before Constantine's edict and there is a possibility that facing repercussions and having already amassed a great amount of theological coherence, pockets of Christianity would have swayed other remote countries to convert. As a result - just like in actual history - newly founded states by the great migrators might have adopted a "heretical" Christianity to establish themselves as different, ruling and separate from the masses they conquer - think the Vandals in Africa or pretty much any neighbor of Rome: they all embraced Arianism, a "heresy" of Christianity. Of course the scale would have been smaller, but there is a good chance that the religion would have "conquered" at least a good part of North Africa, the middle east and Europe before the advent of Islam, which might have ended the faith.
I like this, but what if Christianity did not suceed?, Islam will exist anyways?

Making Carthage christian would be hilarious to me, anyways, they are the closest "european" power to judea right now.
Christianity was formed as an eastern religion, so surely you'd need eastern traits.

Christianity also came to rise because the whole surrounding of its birthplace was Rome. It was irrelevant that the name and place was the Roman Empire. Any massive empire that seemed ruthless and oppressive to the common folk of the conquered would do.

Now, in your map, there's no such thing. There's Babylon, which I would assume has a similar type of religion. So what you need in your timeline is maybe the fall of Babylon and its conquest from Egypt or @Graf Zeppelin , though ideally it would be Epirus, Hellas or Etruria as they're closer to Rome in terms of culture. But both seem farfetched at the time.

Could Christianity (or a similar religion) pop up in Etruria, Hellas or Epirus? Highly unlikely. It would require massive waves of immigrations from the East.

What could emerge would be a similar minded religion, but with Germanic (most probably) or Celtic elements, from within Etruria's borders. But Christiniaty spread because Rome was so dominant in the European world that everyone who followed wanted to be like Rome. And Christianity was something that could link them with that Roman allure, so every new random kingdom wanted to also be Christian to be part of this group.

Your Etruria is vast, but not rich enough and has no link with a great ancient civilization. Other than itself. Only Babylon has this to an extent, the rest of your big empires/states are not expanded well enough to attract influence from other peoples.

And the four pillars of the rise of Christianity was simply following the complete opposites of the four pillars of the Roman Empire, that by the time Christianity was emerging, there was no physical force on earth that could undo their Empire. Chrsitianity came and flipped Rome upside down. These four pillars of Rome were:
Strength (Christianity preaches Weakness, whereas Rome had Force, Army, Violence)
Wealth (Christianity preaches "mental wealth" and that material goods are meaningless)
Science (Christianity preaches "I am the word, follow me and don't search for anything else" and "ignorance is bliss")
Eroticism (Christianity preaches Fasting and Prudence, while Rome celebrated Arts, Beauty, Sex, Sports - mostly in the nude I remind you - etc)

Based on this, you can easily see that any vast and invincible empire could have this revolutionary internal uprising that will turn it upside down. But it'd be different and probably not survive if its place of birth was not self-sufficient. So if it starts in your Babylon and then Lidya or Egypt sweeps them through, it probably won't survive. Christianity needed the stablity that Rome provided to grow and mature as a religion and gain a formal following other than a bunch of angry mobs in urban areas.

Following the migration pattern of the apostles, maybe christianity can develop in Lydia?, a big and powerful empire and its starting to invade Epirus and makedonian lands.

But i understand from your post that was Rome (the antithesis to christianity) what made that religion became so powerful and influencial in Europe.

I the case of Etruria, what if the gauls (the great culture that has resisted to be converted to etruscan after nearly 400 years+) convert to christianity and start to fight against etruscan control?, its plausible?
 

diegosimeone

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Your argument can be divided into two sub sections.

1) Christianity has emerged as the scripts say and it was a given that it would come to life at the point it did and it was up to the people if they were to believe or not.

2) Christianity emerged, as many other branches of Judaism and other eastern religions that would influence such an emergence, due to the circumstances that Rome's dominance brought.

If you're arguing #1, it's just a theological question that I cannot follow. If you're asking #2, then all I can say is that Christianity probably never exists, but there would be circumstances for other religions to emerge and become dominant in an area. But not to the extent that Christianity was unless a big border shift occurs with a massive annexation or an era of centuries of peace comes so that a religion can influence different people in different areas. Without Rome, there's no Christianity. Even if we go back in time in our universe's Rome, odds that Christianity emerges again are very slim, but there's a lot of other similar religions or revolutionary philosophical trends that could emerge due to the specifics of Rome and the 'known world' at the time.

As I cannot really be sure if you're asking a theological or alternative history question, I'll just wait for clarification to expand on this.
 

Gurkhal

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I was thinking about the Mazdaki faith taking over Babylon, as i'll be make smaller the empires at the aftermath of this mod (300 AD) to the start of my ck2 mod (500 AD) because of the big migrations (but the germanics were nearly wiped out by the etruscans). Maybe i can mod the Isis cult starting to spread over Lydia, or something, but im interested anyways of making christianity a part of the history, as its a powerful religion and ck2 mechanics are deeply tied to it.
Over here its a beautiful name for females.
If Babylonia has a history with, or some population of, Zoroastrians from where Mazdakism can grow that would make perfect sense. The important part, as I see it, that would make this religion grow is that it offers something more than the state sponsored communal and politically ruled religion can give to the common people and so build support among the commoners. Since Mazdakism seems to have had a social programe, much like Christianity, I can totally see that they would make themselves more popular than the cults of corrupt and haughty priests who for some reason always declares that the will of the divine is the same as the policy of the state. Every. Single. Time.

EDITED: Removed a digression.
 

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Yeah I don't think that Christianity would exist without the existence of the Roman Empire in Judea. Arguably it and all the other mystery cults of the Roman Empire were an indirect consequence of Roman power: the Romans destabilised conquered societies which responded by creating new religious cults (something that happened in much of the world during modern colonisation), Roman internal peace and security allowed those cults to proliferate across the Mediterranean basin, and Roman civilisation/ideological hegemony created a unified intellectual landscape in which people from distant lands could spread their ideas via a common language and way of understanding the world. In the world you've created that can't really happen, all of the intellectual centres of the Mediterranean are still very separate from one another and your Etruscan Empire doesn't seem to really encompass any of them.

Really the world you've imagined is so alien and different to our own that it's difficult to even guess what it might look like, though I highly, highly encourage you to imagine something for yourself. All the details are there for you in the game, if you can pick them out you can imagine something wonderful. For instance it looks like your Etruscan Empire would be something more oriented towards the Atlantic, Celtic cultural sphere rather than the Mediterranean one, although it clearly has at least some non-Celtic influence in the form of the Etruscans themselves. Perhaps intellectual pursuits are dominated by a Druidic priesthood who mix religion, philosophy and magic into a single discipline. Etruscan and Hellenic tastes have influence over architecture (no rough wooden palisades or hill forts), but otherwise visible material fashions have a lot more influence from the old Celtic and proto-Germanic nobility. Maybe the religious landscape is divided between the eclectic and esoteric, but otherwise well-organised Druidic "church" and more popular forms of paganism based more around the worship of deities than mysticism, and perhaps this is a source of internal conflict. Due to the Empire's contact with the Mediterranean world perhaps Greek philosophy (or even Buddhism) has begun to mix into Druidism as well, drawing it further and further away from disorganised indo-European polytheism.

These are just ideas though, examine your own world and write your own history, don't feel confined by this.
 

HuzzButt

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Christianity didn't spread throughout Europe because of Rome, Christianity spread throughout Rome because of Rome. The faith, even though it would be of another shape may still have appealed to the heathens as it did in real life.
 

AjayAlcos

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Kazanov

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Your argument can be divided into two sub sections.

1) Christianity has emerged as the scripts say and it was a given that it would come to life at the point it did and it was up to the people if they were to believe or not.

2) Christianity emerged, as many other branches of Judaism and other eastern religions that would influence such an emergence, due to the circumstances that Rome's dominance brought.

If you're arguing #1, it's just a theological question that I cannot follow. If you're asking #2, then all I can say is that Christianity probably never exists, but there would be circumstances for other religions to emerge and become dominant in an area. But not to the extent that Christianity was unless a big border shift occurs with a massive annexation or an era of centuries of peace comes so that a religion can influence different people in different areas. Without Rome, there's no Christianity. Even if we go back in time in our universe's Rome, odds that Christianity emerges again are very slim, but there's a lot of other similar religions or revolutionary philosophical trends that could emerge due to the specifics of Rome and the 'known world' at the time.

As I cannot really be sure if you're asking a theological or alternative history question, I'll just wait for clarification to expand on this.
i'm going for the option 2, i'm tolerant with all religions, but i'm aiming for a more...historical aproach to this ahistorical scenario.

I was thinking about christianity spreading for the mediterranean, but as theres no ecclesiastical central authority, heresyes would be the predominant form of that religion, gnostics, donatists, montanists, etc.

Yeah I don't think that Christianity would exist without the existence of the Roman Empire in Judea. Arguably it and all the other mystery cults of the Roman Empire were an indirect consequence of Roman power: the Romans destabilised conquered societies which responded by creating new religious cults (something that happened in much of the world during modern colonisation), Roman internal peace and security allowed those cults to proliferate across the Mediterranean basin, and Roman civilisation/ideological hegemony created a unified intellectual landscape in which people from distant lands could spread their ideas via a common language and way of understanding the world. In the world you've created that can't really happen, all of the intellectual centres of the Mediterranean are still very separate from one another and your Etruscan Empire doesn't seem to really encompass any of them.

Really the world you've imagined is so alien and different to our own that it's difficult to even guess what it might look like, though I highly, highly encourage you to imagine something for yourself. All the details are there for you in the game, if you can pick them out you can imagine something wonderful. For instance it looks like your Etruscan Empire would be something more oriented towards the Atlantic, Celtic cultural sphere rather than the Mediterranean one, although it clearly has at least some non-Celtic influence in the form of the Etruscans themselves. Perhaps intellectual pursuits are dominated by a Druidic priesthood who mix religion, philosophy and magic into a single discipline. Etruscan and Hellenic tastes have influence over architecture (no rough wooden palisades or hill forts), but otherwise visible material fashions have a lot more influence from the old Celtic and proto-Germanic nobility. Maybe the religious landscape is divided between the eclectic and esoteric, but otherwise well-organised Druidic "church" and more popular forms of paganism based more around the worship of deities than mysticism, and perhaps this is a source of internal conflict. Due to the Empire's contact with the Mediterranean world perhaps Greek philosophy (or even Buddhism) has begun to mix into Druidism as well, drawing it further and further away from disorganised indo-European polytheism.

These are just ideas though, examine your own world and write your own history, don't feel confined by this.
Thanks for your post :D

If Babylonia has a history with, or some population of, Zoroastrians from where Mazdakism can grow that would make perfect sense. The important part, as I see it, that would make this religion grow is that it offers something more than the state sponsored communal and politically ruled religion can give to the common people and so build support among the commoners. Since Mazdakism seems to have had a social programe, much like Christianity, I can totally see that they would make themselves more popular than the cults of corrupt and haughty priests who for some reason always declares that the will of the divine is the same as the policy of the state. Every. Single. Time.

EDITED: Removed a digression.
As the Sassanids deal with Masdakis, i was thinking, as you said, of an scenario were the masdakis revolt against the Babilonian stablishment and then are about to bring down the empire.
 

Eusebio

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Odds are that people would still be losing faith with the traditional ethno-religions and turn towards mystery cults, which to my knowledge were already spreading before Rome's dominance anyway. Thus they may turn to Mithras or Isis, but in the end I don't think that its very likely that the traditional polytheistic traditions with a communal focus would have been able to stand their ground against the Cult of Isis than against Christianity with their promises of an individual salvation and an individual relation with the divine. It would probably not have been as sharp a rift as with a fully monotheistic religion like Christianity but not likely things would have gone unchanged.
Why? Europe's extinguishing of traditional polytheistic 'pagan' religious practices was a quite unique occurrence in world history. Many traditional Indian, Chinese and Japanese religious practices are as strong as ever in the 21st century. No reason why Zeus/Jupiter worship couldn't survive as long as Krishna, Amaterasu or Chinese ancestors.
 

Gurkhal

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Why? Europe's extinguishing of traditional polytheistic 'pagan' religious practices was a quite unique occurrence in world history. Many traditional Indian, Chinese and Japanese religious practices are as strong as ever in the 21st century. No reason why Zeus/Jupiter worship couldn't survive as long as Krishna, Amaterasu or Chinese ancestors.
Just want to know, before I write a long post about it, are we talking about real history or the scenario presented at the start of this thread?



 

Yakman

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eh. dunno.

Jews were widespread through the Mediterranean by the time the Romans took over. Presumably, a Rome/Etruria that looks north... say Pyrrhus defeats them in the south... well... those Jews are presumably spreading throughout the Med in any event. So the lines which Christianity already spread by are still extant.

So... Christianity grew w/o state support under Roman rule. Why wouldn't it grow w/o state support w/o Roman rule? Paganism was still unfulfilling. Many of the things which propelled Christian growth - the plagues, the emptiness of paganism, the Mediterranean trade routes - all that's still there. Maybe there's no great inflection point like the Milvian Bridge, but why can't the religion get there without the oppression?
 
Last edited:

Gurkhal

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As the Sassanids deal with Masdakis, i was thinking, as you said, of an scenario were the masdakis revolt against the Babilonian stablishment and then are about to bring down the empire.
Yeah, that could work. A radical and popular Mazdakis revolt where the wordly elites must either come to terms with the rebels or face their overthrow. Thus out goes the old priesthood and in comes the new one.
 

demanvanwezel

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