An argument for no victory conditions

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Jorgen_CAB

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The argument are still not about Victory Conditions being in the game or not but rather if the game mechanics and AI should be hard coded and designed around them.

Having soft Victory Conditions should not be a problem... they become a problem when the AI view the game as a contest rather than as an emergent story and each AI empire\nation take decisions based on their own interests rather than reaching an arbitrary finish line.
 
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prismaticmarcus

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For those who are accustomed to endless games, the End looks like whatever we want it to. Maybe it looks like nothing. Maybe it is the aftermath of a war between the only two viable empires left who could conceivably dominate. Maybe it is the point at which you've researched everything and are well ahead of every other empire, scientifically. Maybe it's after a cataclysmic event has been cleaned up. Maybe it's the moment you decide that you want to try a different kind of empire. Maybe it's after ten years of peace between every remaining empire, and no threat of war in sight, and you decide that the galaxy has effectively stabilized. The end doesn't have to 'look like' anything. It can look like whatever you want it to look like.

If you like victory conditions, more power to you, but it's not my cup of tea. I don't like being told how to play in a sandbox, it sucks the life out of it for me. But that's unimportant, because it's pointless trying to convince anyone why a personal preference is the right way to play.

The important issue here is really not whether victory conditions or endless play is the 'better' way to play. The important issue - at least, to me - is avoiding the consequences of designing a game from the ground-up with victory conditions in mind, because AI that are trying to 'win the race' all the time are unrealistic and uninteresting. It removes variety from the AI's personality, and it trends the game toward conquest.

That is what is at stake.
all your 'Maybe's' are entirely fair enough (except for 'looks like nothing') but you're looking at the question from the player's perspective. I think what's more interesting to most people here is looking at it from the dev/author perspective. How do you think they should engineer the End of The Game?

It'd be interesting to get a dev's view on this as well.
 

prismaticmarcus

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No, there's nothing at stake. PDS are going to do what they do anyway. They aren't waiting on tenterhooks to see what way this thread turns out.

You have been strongly belabouring the idea that simply becauase victory conditions exist the AI will have to be crappy and not be good for endless mode. This is not, in fact, an issue about victory conditions. It's about poor AI. And that's ok. We should all be worried about the AI. Big part of the game, right? But that doesn't explain why victory conditions shouldn't appear. The two are, in fact, unrelated. It's saying that if we don't get Endless as the core mode then Endless can't be good as an additional mode when there's no reason to believe that's so. The way to solve this is to make a better AI not to change the whole game on the off chance that PDS are crapwits with no development skills only capable of making one good game mode.

In abstract there is no better way to play between the two game modes. Again, for perhaps the tenth time, I want the endless mode. I do. I think that is the 'real' experience that 4X games have to offer. That is how I typically enjoy playing 4X games once I've learned the systems. So we are not talking at all about which of these is better. We're talking about which mode should be the first one presented to a new player. This maybe isn't the be all and end all of a games success but it is important and it does need to be hedged towards new players and to give fixed goals that help people learn and reward achievements that (to them) may or may not actually seem rewarding.

Remember; they are new players. They don't know how to set themselves goals in this world. They don't know what's possible or even plausible. And that's why they need a more closed, guided experience as their first point of contact. So they can look at the victory conditions and see what the game defines as success. It gives players a reason to look at systems they otherwise might just ignore because the game says 'Hey you can win through commerce'. That's how you take the emphasis off warfare.

In an open endless game everything always comes down to fighting. That's just the way it works. Eventually you (or someone) is going to run out of room to expand and look towards you. And this is a PDS game. The AI won't be shy about starting wars even on easy. An infinite timeline makes it certain that warfare has to be the defining factor. At least with victory conditions it ensures that other approaches are actually placed on the same level as war. Yes, it is gamey. But at least that means you can grab a win while the militant empires are too busy fighting each other to actually win the game. It rewards you for being smart and particularly as a new player it's really REALLY important to make players feel clever.

In infinite game how is playing a peaceful race of traders even plausible? All the resources are going to be taken. There has to be scarcity and so has to be conflict. And if you haven't been keeping pace with the size of your forces and your military tech then boy are you just the most tempting target.

You say you don't just want warfare, then what you are really looking for is a game mode where the resources won't necessarily all be used up, where there is enough space for everyone, at least for long enough for the victory conditions to show up. Running out of space and resources guarantees war is the only answer. No matter how peaceful you as a player want to be, a good, rational AI (that you're so concerned about) will figure out that you are an easy target.

The comments about resources gave me a lightbulb moment. Maybe if there was just a finite (but huge) amount of resources in the galaxy! At some point ALL the resources in the galaxy WILL deplete, which would create a whole new set of challenges. But inevitably there will come a time when everything is gone. Game Over. With a score.
 
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FelixG

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The comments about resources gave me a lightbulb moment. Maybe if there was just a finite (but huge) amount of resources in the galaxy! At some point ALL the resources in the galaxy WILL deplete, which would create a whole new set of challenges. But inevitably there will come a time when everything is gone. Game Over. With a score.


"Its the year (REDACTED), the last gram of iron has been mined from the last metal rich asteroid at the far end of the galaxy. Fleets are now built around capital salvage ships, and all the major powers have switched to kinetic weapons to avoid vaporizing too much of the enemy craft, the fights are no longer over worlds, or space, but over the fleets themselves, so that the wreckage can be harvested, and another fleet built, or losses replaced. The future does not look hopeful."
 
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Saintrl

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"Its the year (REDACTED), the last gram of iron has been mined from the last metal rich asteroid at the far end of the galaxy. Fleets are now built around capital salvage ships, and all the major powers have switched to kinetic weapons to avoid vaporizing too much of the enemy craft, the fights are no longer over worlds, or space, but over the fleets themselves, so that the wreckage can be harvested, and another fleet built, or losses replaced. The future does not look hopeful."
That sounds like an AMAZING bookmark to put in to go straight into the end game. Forget the gaggle and hassle of early-mid game building up planets, time to play space chess with attrition!
 
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Kuschelflummi

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That does sound appeling... until someone creates a replicator... or a Starsmith!
 
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zukodark

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If Stellaris ends up having victory conditions, the community will probably consider them "how the game should be player", and perhaps never even try playing without them. While I am not certain in it will happen, I think there is a good chance.
 
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LostAlone

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Do you want the AI to be hard coded to reach a particular victory condition or not?

Do you want the AI to not be? For the AI to just piddle around not trying to win the game so that you alone can cruise to the finish line?

And that's the problem with trying to ask these kind of questions. All of them are clearly extremely loaded.

The answer here is to create better victory conditions (which by the way people very much have been arguing against) which aren't just about arbitrary building or resource gathering. Victory conditions clearly should be things that were already very much in your best interests to do anyway, just taken to a fairly substantial position of dominance. Typically today we expect to see that being over 50% (or higher) of all presently available resource X; control more space or trade or population or whatever than every other race combined which typically precludes any potential 'rush' victory.

With that kind of victory conditions it doesn't matter if the AI is hard coded to pursue the victory conditions or not because they are already going to be pursuing their best interests which, in time, will lead either to victory or failure. In an endless game mode the AI still works because pursuing dominance is still clearly worthwhile.

Once again - Problems with the AI are not the fault of victory conditions. There are far better options than just stripping out the more approachable aspect of the game. Building a better Ai will be better for both sides of the game.
 
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LostAlone

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If Stellaris ends up having victory conditions, the community will probably consider them "how the game should be player", and perhaps never even try playing without them. While I am not certain in it will happen, I think there is a good chance.

I don't know if that's true. I genuinely don't know anyone who doesn't play with at least some mods in all their games. Whether it's the keyboard shortcut mods or UI colour or map improvements; it's all tweaks and balances and fixes and it's just the done thing. Especially in older games mods like BlackICE have almost become DLC packs in their own right; so good that they might as well be the default. Maybe that's just my impression but when the game's launcher says 'Hey would you like to use some mods?' that says there's more going on.

As for if people click on to the endless mode if that's not the default; I guess that's an interesting question. Certainly the kind of people who are dead set on playing an endless mode are the ones who are pretty hardcore fans likely to be fiddling with other settings anyway. It certainly feels to me like any player who would really want an endless mode would be able to find it, assuming it was placed as prominently as Ironman is in present games. As for everyone else, well, some people are going to get to the end and want more and they'll go find it. Other people will be happy with what they had and stick with it. And that's ok. I don't think they are especially losing out by playing in one mode over another.
 
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B3ndolf

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the reason why eu4 and ck2 and viccy work so well without victory conditions is the asymmetrical start which gives you plenty of different things to aim for, stellaris will have a symetrical start so you cant do things like play a game with Teutonic order and plan to conquer and form Germany as an example.

not saying it cant work without victory conditions but its a lot harder to keep it entertaining that way with a symmetrical start.
 

Jorgen_CAB

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Do you want the AI to not be? For the AI to just piddle around not trying to win the game so that you alone can cruise to the finish line?

And that's the problem with trying to ask these kind of questions. All of them are clearly extremely loaded.

The answer here is to create better victory conditions (which by the way people very much have been arguing against) which aren't just about arbitrary building or resource gathering. Victory conditions clearly should be things that were already very much in your best interests to do anyway, just taken to a fairly substantial position of dominance. Typically today we expect to see that being over 50% (or higher) of all presently available resource X; control more space or trade or population or whatever than every other race combined which typically precludes any potential 'rush' victory.

With that kind of victory conditions it doesn't matter if the AI is hard coded to pursue the victory conditions or not because they are already going to be pursuing their best interests which, in time, will lead either to victory or failure. In an endless game mode the AI still works because pursuing dominance is still clearly worthwhile.

Once again - Problems with the AI are not the fault of victory conditions. There are far better options than just stripping out the more approachable aspect of the game. Building a better Ai will be better for both sides of the game.

What I think that you do not understand is that we do NOT want the AI of every faction/empire to fight for any arbitrary goal but fight for their own goals based on their character and surrounding. No hard coded automatically go to war against the player if they have a certain score and so on.

Basically each individual AI will have individual goals that may change over time, just as the player can have goals that change over time.

If you have an over arching AI that work for a specific victory condition the game become a contest with arbitrary goals which does not suit an open ended sandbox game very well.

I think it may be good if the game have some sort of ending that you can choose to work toward if you want to, but not traditional victory conditions from most other 4x games. They are just a lazy way to try and make the game interesting.

There should simply be built in mechanics in the game that encourage AI factions to ally with each other if any one powerful faction threatens them, at least they should try to do that if they can cooperate. The AI (or player faction for that matter) should not be able to cooperate easily with everyone, it should depend on many factors.
Every decision that the AI takes should be taken from their own point of view and not because the player are trying to achieve some set victory goals, each AI faction should basically work with the same sandbox AI mode which is govern by many different factors and each one will behave differently as a result. This obviously will give the impression that AI factions actually have a character which are reflected by their philosophy and overall status.

As soon as you try to do what they do in games like Civ and Endless Space (and many other games) the AI stops acting rational in favor of obtaining these victory conditions that very well can be player only.

I presume you want the game to be a contest and that the end goal is the reason you play... I'm not actually sure most people play these kind of games for such reasons.
 
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Harle

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Do you want the AI to not be? For the AI to just piddle around not trying to win the game so that you alone can cruise to the finish line?

I want them to act rationally. I expect for military-oriented races to conquer, but to respect the might of a more powerful empire. I expect scientific-oriented races to research and apply their technology to protecting their borders and not necessarily expanding them. I expect economic-oriented races to recognize the value of trade with a far-reaching empire. And I expect diplomacy-oriented races to spend a lot of time trying to maintain stability between empires that might otherwise fall to war, because their goal is peace, not peace as a means to victory. And I do not expect any of them to abandon their motives and attack, merely because my score is higher than theirs.

In Crusader Kings, despite a lack of victory conditions (or AI seeking to compete with the player), that doesn't stop instances of the AI from doing remarkably well. The nice thing about filling the world with a lot of detailed and interesting NPCs (be they characters or races) with their own objectives and motivations is that you see a gradient of success. Some will die out, some will beat the player, and most will fall between. There is room in the Stellaris galaxy for dozens of empires, big and small. And I hope, that like in Europa and Crusader Kings, the galaxy isn't in a huge rush to gobble up their smaller neighbors, but rather borders will shift, new empires will rise, the unstable will fracture into splinters, the old will fall, replaced by the new. That is the game I want to see.

I would rather a varied world full of colorful, interesting empires, than a world full of empires who think that their only goal is to stop me from winning at all costs. Regardless of their personalities, character, motivations, and history. That isn't an interesting world, that's a predictable and shallow one. For both endless games and ones with victory conditions.
 
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I don't know if that's true. I genuinely don't know anyone who doesn't play with at least some mods in all their games. Whether it's the keyboard shortcut mods or UI colour or map improvements; it's all tweaks and balances and fixes and it's just the done thing. Especially in older games mods like BlackICE have almost become DLC packs in their own right; so good that they might as well be the default. Maybe that's just my impression but when the game's launcher says 'Hey would you like to use some mods?' that says there's more going on.

As for if people click on to the endless mode if that's not the default; I guess that's an interesting question. Certainly the kind of people who are dead set on playing an endless mode are the ones who are pretty hardcore fans likely to be fiddling with other settings anyway. It certainly feels to me like any player who would really want an endless mode would be able to find it, assuming it was placed as prominently as Ironman is in present games. As for everyone else, well, some people are going to get to the end and want more and they'll go find it. Other people will be happy with what they had and stick with it. And that's ok. I don't think they are especially losing out by playing in one mode over another.

I just don't like the idea of victory conditions being the default, as that would cause people to expect a lot from it. Developers tend to focus more on the default modes of a game, or more people will will dislike it. Thus, they would have to aim the AI to focus on victory conditions, use a lot of work to make two separate AIs for both modes, or make players angry that "AIs doesn't play how they should." It would be something else with a victory screen, with an continue button, and a way to just disable it. That would be the optimal result, according to me. Perhaps even disabling achievements after the end screen, as it would be too easy to do anything with eternal time. But with default victory conditions, the game would have to be based around having victory conditions.
 

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I still have no idea what 'default' entails in this context. How would that even work in a game like this? What is 'default?'

I asked, but LostAlone has not responded.
 

zukodark

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I still have no idea what 'default' entails in this context. How would that even work in a game like this? What is 'default?'

I asked, but LostAlone has not responded.

What I mean with "default" is the option that the game is geared towards. In a case where both options get an equal amounts of work, there will be no default, but I see that as unlikely. If the game is created with victory conditions in mind, and then there is added a little box which says "endless mode", victory conditions is the default.

While I ideally would like the developers to put equal thought on both, but that could mean a lot of work. So without that, I would prefer a game mode without victory conditions to be the default, which the game is geared towards, with possibly some place at the start screen where you can activate different types of victory conditions (preferably you could choose to have more than one activated at a time).
 

Harle

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What I mean with "default" is the option that the game is geared towards. In a case where both options get an equal amounts of work, there will be no default, but I see that as unlikely. If the game is created with victory conditions in mind, and then there is added a little box which says "endless mode", victory conditions is the default.

While I ideally would like the developers to put equal thought on both, but that could mean a lot of work. So without that, I would prefer a game mode without victory conditions to be the default, which the game is geared towards, with possibly some place at the start screen where you can activate different types of victory conditions (preferably you could choose to have more than one activated at a time).

And I think that is very sensible, and it is also why I have assumed from LostAlone's posts that when he says 'default' he intends for things like the AI to be geared toward victory conditions as well. (Which he has more or less confirmed in recent posts, in one form or another).

I am inclined to agree with you, and I feel like well-built AI manipulating interesting systems with a variety of 'personality' traits to guide them, would result in a better experience for both endless and victory conditions, than an AI geared toward accomplishing victory conditions would for both game modes.

Obviously both sides want an engaging experience. Even if AI doesn't fly off the handle when the player takes the lead in victory conditions, it would still be a more interesting and responsive world to play in.
 
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And I think that is very sensible, and it is also why I have assumed from LostAlone's posts that when he says 'default' he intends for things like the AI to be geared toward victory conditions as well. (Which he has more or less confirmed in recent posts, in one form or another).

I am inclined to agree with you, and I feel like well-built AI manipulating interesting systems with a variety of 'personality' traits to guide them, would result in a better experience for both endless and victory conditions, than an AI geared toward accomplishing victory conditions would for both game modes.

Obviously both sides want an engaging experience. Even if AI doesn't fly off the handle when the player takes the lead in victory conditions, it would still be a more interesting and responsive world to play in.

No, I haven't done that at all.

By default I mean that when you click new game that is the setting it starts out on. Exactly like Ironman today. It is turned off by default. That is all. Nothing else about anything else changes. I don't really know how you managed to think 'default' meant anything else to be honest.

And (one more time) that non-endless mode being the default state of the game says nothing about how the AI should or shouldn't work.

You keep presenting this false dichotomy - That one mode or the other must detract from the other, that the AI can't be made to work for both. It can.

As for an AI with personality; that's just a way to say you want an AI that plays like a person, not a computer. And surely we ALWAYS want that regardless of mode or context?

For hopefully the last time - The answer is to make a good AI that plays well for both modes. There is no reason why having good AI in one mode would make the AI bad in another. There is no reason why they need to use the same AI at all. There are so many other answers here than just letting one mode dominate.
 
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For hopefully the last time - The answer is to make a good AI that plays well for both modes.

That appears to be what he just said. In fact, I think most everyone currently posting agrees with this. The concern is legitimate because many 4x games(if you think of Stellaris as a 4x) have an AI that acts completely irrationally and hates the player for doing well, in order to challenge the player's progress toward the victory conditions.

There is no reason why they need to use the same AI at all.

Development time and opportunity cost?
 
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I'm wondering how victory conditions will work with end game disasters.

Let's say your a few points away from a cultural victory and then a warp invasion happens. Do you just ignore it as you'll "win" soon anyway? Do all your AI opponents focus on you and ignore the literal death of their nations bearing down?

A focus on a science victory is likely to kill you as well.
 

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I'm wondering how victory conditions will work with end game disasters.

Let's say your a few points away from a cultural victory and then a warp invasion happens. Do you just ignore it as you'll "win" soon anyway? Do all your AI opponents focus on you and ignore the literal death of their nations bearing down?

A focus on a science victory is likely to kill you as well.

As I understand there is only one victory condition, conquer everyone. Personally prefer they keep it that way. Maybe some sort of Federation victory as well.
 
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