An Argument for Beta Israel(Semien) Independence in 1444

[Aelia]

I'd like to argue that Beta Israel should be independent at game start, I'll use mainly those sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_Israel#Political_independence_.284th_century_.E2.80.93_1632.29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Semien

and the Hebrew one which goes further into details:

https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/תולדות_ביתא_ישראל:_1270–1529#.D7.94.D7.A7.D7.99.D7.A1.D7.A8_.D7.93.D7.95.D7.95.D7.99.D7.AA_.D7.94.D7.A8.D7.90.D7.A9.D7.95.D7.9F_.D7.95.D7.99.D7.95.D7.A8.D7.A9.D7.95

Don't think I need to do much explaining considering the Era is explicity called
"Political independence (4th century – 1632)" but I'll anyways:

In 1444, the Semien Kingdom was practically sovereign. It had a king, it had an army and it was actively fighting a war against the Ethiopian Empire under Yeshaq, sometimes invading foreign territory outside of Lake Tana and the mountains of Semien. The Jews lost an important battle at Weger which resulted in the loss of their main source of income, the fertile farmlands and they were pushed back to the mountains but they didn't stop fighting nor did the Kingdom of Semien cease to exist, that would happen only 200 years later. By 1450 the Jews managed to annex back all the territories they lost to Emperor Yeshaq. Only in 1462 the Ethiopian Empire was able to defeat them and even then he didn't manage to fully incoporate all their lands. Only in 1642 in the reign of Emperor Susenyos the Kingdom was finally annexed and defeated for good.

Also, here a translation of the introduction of the page titled "The Chronoicles of Beta Israel" in Hebrew Wikipedia:
"The years 1270-1529 are known as the "Survival Era". This era begun with the Solomonid dynasty ascension to the throne and the overthrow of the Zagwa Dynasty. The overthrow of the Zagwa was ominous for the people of Beta Israel, but they refrained from intervening. Afterwards, after the strengthening of Ethiopia (The empire), it fought a war of extermination against the Jews. Despite all of that, the Jews managed to keep their independence in the mountains of Semien and around Lake Tana. This era [Of Survival] ended in the invasion of Adal Sultanate to Ethiopia, signifying the start of the "Defeat Era"[1529-1630], in which the Jews were once aside the Muslims and once aside the Christians."

Another relevant part in this page is Eliyahu of Ferrara letter from 1435, it reads like this: Beta Israel is an independent kingdom ruled by ministers and kings. It has an army with which it fights the Axumites [Refering to the non-Jewish Ethiopians] he even writes that the Jews "are making fun of Christianity" and then he goes on to describe the unique language they use which he hasn't heard before.

 

[Aelia]

The earliest mention of a Jewish kingdom dates only to the year 1528:
"(...) And Falasa is a strong kingdom of Jews who are valiant..... and it is situated on high mountains and peaks and no one can ascend there to make war."
- p. 66

Before this kingdom, so during the 14th and 15th century, the 'ayhud', how the Jews were called back then, "are not depicted as having a unified political system. Nor is religion portrayed as the crucial organizing principle uponw which their society was based. The various rulers of the 'ayhud' mentioned in the texts are not viewed as powerul kings ruling over a distinctly defined religious group but as regional gouverneurs whose subjects included both 'ayhud' and Christians" (p. 63).

To summarize: Before the rise of Semien in the 16th century the Beta Israel were nothing else than disconnected local communities supplying rebellious gouverneurs.


Dobe'a? is that supposed to be one of these Medieval Beja kingdoms? For Afar I am not that sure. I would definetly have to go back to library to see if they aready got anything interesting in 1444.


And the fact that all African nations, and indeed all RotW nations, play like exact copies of the European tags (European tech-trees). Also the fact that there is still no proper attrition system and no minority religion / culture system ruinded EU 4 for me back in the day.

What about Gideon V? and I know for a fact that there was a Jewish kingdom prior to the 16th century so that's 100% incorrect.
Just look at this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Semien

 

[LinusLinothorax]

What about Gideon V? and I know for a fact that there was a Jewish kingdom prior to the 16th century so that's 100% incorrect.
Just look at this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Semien

So you want to prove Steven Kaplan wrong with Wikipedia and a kings list without a single reference?

 

[Aelia]

So you want to prove Steven Kaplan wrong with Wikipedia and a kings list without a single reference?

He didn't say the kingdom didn't exist prior to the 16th century, you did. Queen Judith alone, although a semi-legendary figure proves the kingdom existed before that point. Not to mention the letter of Eliyahu of Ferrara - just read the op and you will see references.

Anyways, you seem to not understand what this thread is about - we are not arguing about the historical reality in vacuum but in order to make the game represent said reality better -
and so do you think Beta Israel being annexed with Ethiopian cores on it without any trouble is favorable to any of these:
1) Extra separatism in 1444, laziest and lamest way in my opinion
2)Rebels already rebelling in 1444
3) Vassal of Ethiopia with high LD
4)Independent kingdom

If the answer is no, what would you pick?

 

[AirikrStrife]

He didn't say the kingdom didn't exist prior to the 16th century, you did. Queen Judith alone, although a semi-legendary figure proves the kingdom existed before that point. Not to mention the letter of Eliyahu of Ferrara - just read the op and you will see references.

Anyways, you seem to not understand what this thread is about - we are not arguing about the historical reality in vacuum but in order to make the game represent said reality better -
and so do you think Beta Israel being annexed with Ethiopian cores on it without any trouble is favorable to any of these:
1) Extra separatism in 1444, laziest and lamest way in my opinion
2)Rebels already rebelling in 1444
3) Vassal of Ethiopia with high LD
4)Independent kingdom

If the answer is no, what would you pick?

Even if Queen Judith did exist there's not even proper evidence that the mythical figure was jewish or ruled over Semien. Some scholars put her as a ruler of Damot.

I trust LinusLinothorax and his sources. But I think a bit of the friction comes from how we want to look at it. Aelia haven't been able to prove the existnce of a centralized kingdom with proper borders independent of Ethiopia. Linus points to the presence of rebellions and social disorder in the region, which do covers up most if not all the evidence that Aelia is citing as being within the frames of what Linus thinks, are not enough to merit it's own independent state within Ethiopia from a historic point of view.

As I said in a previous post, I'd say Semien get included, recognizing that we are essentially playing as rebels, but for flavor sake let them be a nation and not only a random rebel army so it'll become playable. However then Semien should start at war with Ethiopia.

 

[Aelia]

Even if Queen Judith did exist there's not even proper evidence that the mythical figure was jewish or ruled over Semien. Some scholars put her as a ruler of Damot.

I trust LinusLinothorax and his sources. But I think a bit of the friction comes from how we want to look at it. Aelia haven't been able to prove the existnce of a centralized kingdom with proper borders independent of Ethiopia. Linus points to the presence of rebellions and social disorder in the region, which do covers up most if not all the evidence that Aelia is citing as being within the frames of what Linus thinks, are not enough to merit it's own independent state within Ethiopia from a historic point of view.

As I said in a previous post, I'd say Semien get included, recognizing that we are essentially playing as rebels, but for flavor sake let them be a nation and not only a random rebel army so it'll become playable. However then Semien should start at war with Ethiopia.

The point is that the Jewish kingdom did exist prior to the 16th century, and yes there is evidence just read the OP, damn it ! xD
I didn't try to argue it was centralized, just that it existed, on the contrary - that's why I compared it to the decentralized Albania.
In any case, what I wanted Linus to say is his preferred version of displaying this complex situation, I gave the Albanian example so we can see how a similar situation was dealt with but he yet to reply how he wants to depict it in game, instead arguing about the historical details which is cool and all but we are in a paradox suggestion forum
and so our end goal is to come to an agreement on how to represent it in-game

 

[LinusLinothorax]

He didn't say the kingdom didn't exist prior to the 16th century, you did.

If you would mind to read my post more carefully you would see that this is exactly what he said.

Not to mention the letter of Eliyahu of Ferrara - just read the op and you will see references.

I can't find anything about this letter online. Even if it exists I am not sure if I would prefer it over the indigenous Ethiopian sources which imply the direct opposite.

Anyways, you seem to not understand what this thread is about - we are not arguing about the historical reality in vacuum but in order to make the game represent said reality better -
and so do you think Beta Israel being annexed with Ethiopian cores on it without any trouble is favorable to any of these:
1) Extra separatism in 1444, laziest and lamest way in my opinion
2)Rebels already rebelling in 1444
3) Vassal of Ethiopia with high LD
4)Independent kingdom

If the answer is no, what would you pick?

In any case, what I wanted Linus to say is his preferred version of displaying this complex situation, I gave the Albanian example so we can see how a similar situation was dealt with but he yet to reply how he wants to depict it in game, instead arguing about the historical details which is cool and all but we are in a paradox suggestion forum
and so our end goal is to come to an agreement on how to represent it in-game

Trin Tragula already stated that he would go for the rebels, and this is the best since most historical solution imo. Maybe Paradox is generous though and adds a Beta Israel tag from 1520 onwards.

 

[illathid]

Most historical =/= best solution IMHO.

If Albania gets a tag in 1444 I don't see why Semien can't.

 

[LinusLinothorax]

Btw @Airstrike, when you finished your Ethiopian thread mark me pls.

 

[--Yigito123--]

Honestly, the most historical route sometimes isn't the best option. This is why Albania doesn't start at war with the Ottomans anymore, to give the players a chance to play them (Ok, I don't actually know why; it had that effect, though). Having a Jewish nation a vassal of Ethiopia with high liberty desire would give players a choice to play a Jewish nation without releasing it as Ethiopia or making a custom nation. And more choices are never a bad thing.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Btw @Airstrike, when you finished your Ethiopian thread mark me pls.

Ofc!

 

[Milan23]

The game has many instances where gameplay is chosen over historical accuracy (Albania not being at war, Provence not being in HRE, hejaz being independent ect) so why can't Semien be a vassal of Ethiopia? It would add a whole other dimension to the game and allow the player to play with a Jewish nation, a brand new religion. Not to mention it would add new achievements and possibly a form able nation. I think it's a waste to have Jewish provinces and not a nation in 1444. From what I've read anyway Semien was extremely decentralised and it probably wouldn't be that inaccurate to represent it as a vassal anyway

 

[Arser]

It's been half a month. Anymore opinions?

 

[MiniaAr]

Hello everyone,

I remembered @Trin Tragula posting something about what the Dongola tag is supposed to represent, but my research brought me here because he posted about Dongola here.

As Nubia has been discussed here already, can somebody clue me on what Dongola is representing and why it was split from Makuria/Alodia (I understand the Beja tag)

 

[AirikrStrife]

Hello everyone,

I remembered @Trin Tragula posting something about what the Dongola tag is supposed to represent, but my research brought me here because he posted about Dongola here.

As Nubia has been discussed here already, can somebody clue me on what Dongola is representing and why it was split from Makuria/Alodia (I understand the Beja tag)

Dongola is supposed to represent the abdallabs and other muslim arab/nubian tribes. Makuria as of now represents fractures of chistiian states in the north, primarily Dotawo

 

[Semi-Lobster]

The situation in the upper Nile is potentially very interesting if given a bit more flavour events combined with the new Coptic goals system introduced in Rights of Man, a fractured few Christian states crumbling in the wake of the spread of Islam is pretty compelling. Perhaps a "Nubia" cultural union/decision would help provide a goal for players? The problem is the expansion of Islam into Sudan... it doesn't happen properly. The downfall of the Christian Kingdom of Alodia wasn't by the Muslim Beja and Fatamids, but by nations that aren't even in the game right now. The Funj Sultanate of Sennar who invaded from the south, ironically the Funj themselves were advancing north from the expanding Shilluk Sultanate who pushed the Funj from their traditional lands. I also find that Ethiopia spends far too much time meddling with its poorer Coptic neighbours when it should be focusing on Adal and the Somali sultanates.

 

[AirikrStrife]

The situation in the upper Nile is potentially very interesting if given a bit more flavour events combined with the new Coptic goals system introduced in Rights of Man, a fractured few Christian states crumbling in the wake of the spread of Islam is pretty compelling. Perhaps a "Nubia" cultural union/decision would help provide a goal for players? The problem is the expansion of Islam into Sudan... it doesn't happen properly. The downfall of the Christian Kingdom of Alodia wasn't by the Muslim Beja and Fatamids, but by nations that aren't even in the game right now. The Funj Sultanate of Sennar who invaded from the south, ironically the Funj themselves were advancing north from the expanding Shilluk Sultanate who pushed the Funj from their traditional lands. I also find that Ethiopia spends far too much time meddling with its poorer Coptic neighbours when it should be focusing on Adal and the Somali sultanates.

I did a suggestion on Funj in my thread https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/lake-chad-nile-river-valley.978673/
I imrpoved it a bit since but haven't published any new thread on the matter

 

[CaptainCrape]

Maybe I am a bit late to this thread, but I thought I'd put in my two cents. According to the Wikipedia page for the Kingdom of Semien, Semien wasn't only independent in 1444 but it stayed independent until 1627. To quote directly from the article, "During the reign of emperor Susenyos, the Ethiopian empire waged war against the Jewish kingdom and managed to conquer the kingdom and annex it to the Ethiopian empire by 1627."

I have pushed for Semien to be independent before, in fact I like to think I am part of the reason why they added a second Jewish province to Ethiopia.

 

[Giakhanh271]

if the game make 2-3 minor culture beside the main culture of the province and when we change the main culture the the old culture will move to neighbor. we can add the event of returning home that the all culture of minor can go to their home province and make a rebel to get independence.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I did a suggestion on Funj in my thread https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/lake-chad-nile-river-valley.978673/
I imrpoved it a bit since but haven't published any new thread on the matter

A much improved map IMO, given the relatively recent changes made to Makuria and the Beja, I hope Paradox continues to look into this region of the world. I think, in conjunction with the Coptic religion mechanic, could make these nations much more interesting to play.

 

[Trin Tragula]

Nice to see you're still around Semi-Lobster