It sounds like we've started talking about the abstraction of amphibious warfare ships (which I'll abbreviate as AWS from here on in) in the WWW thread. The current abstraction in the game, while fine from a gameplay perspective (and it's the devs game, so it's their call), is a huge distortion of actual invasion mechanics in the period, and AWS were anything but merchants with troops put on them (this is WW2, not the Crimean war).
Overall, of the around 21.7 million tons of fighting ships produced between 1937 and 1946, 31.9 per cent were AWS. This is more than the tonnage of BBs (5.2 per cent), CAs (2.4 per cent), CLs (4.9 per cent) and CVs (16.8 per cent) combined.
Ie, from a production standpoint, it makes more sense to abstract out BBs, CAs, CLs and CVs, than it does AWS.
It's also important to note that AWS were not merchant ships or passenger liners (of which there were around 45 million tons built by the Allies in WW2, and 5-6 million tons built by the Axis). Many were converted from those roles (primarily the UK LSIs), but the vast majority of tonnage of AWS, be they landing craft, landing ships or attack transports, were purpose-built, and often had a reasonable amount of armament (attack transports often had 4 or 5-inch guns on them).
In this context, techs that for a very reasonable coast magically transform liberty ships or 1920s freighters into LSTs, LSIs and the like is a huge abstraction. It's more distorting and just as silly as allowing a nation to use it's existing truck stock as APCs by allowing them to research one tech.
A potential, historically plausible system that works with the current set-up:
One way around this would be to require separate AWS production, with AWS kept in a pool like convoy ships, but are not substitutable with convoy ships. Make it possible to build better AWS over time (the US, UK and Japan all did this), and have invasions take from the 'best' ships in the pool before they go with the worst (possibly allowing invasions to be tagged for priority, if there are two invasions happening at once), with the bonus/penalty reduction given by the landing craft dependant on the type of craft available. Essentially the same mechanic, but now nations need to be able to earn their AWS capability, rather than have it gifted to them. The AI just needs to be taught to build the AWS separate from the convoys, so it's just as easy for the AI as the current system.
You can even have it that if there are no AWS, the system uses freighters, but these come with a huge penalty (in fact, I'd probably err on taking this approach) - this could proxy the potential use by Germany of invasion barges and the like for a historical-ish Sealion.
In terms of how the current system distorts gameplay:
- At the start of the game, the US and UK's merchant shipping stock means they can launch multi-division invasions, including armoured divisions, from day one. This was not a capability they had, and obviously allows for all sorts of invasion silliness.
- In 1943, one of the reasons the Allies didn't invade France was because they didn't have enough AWS in the right place to get the job done. Now, (presuming they start with historically plausible merchant marines) the US and UK start with the capacity to carry out Overlord in 1936 if they so desire.
- Similarly, in the Pacific, the US historically had to build up a stock of AWS before it could build really get its island-hopping campaign into gear. Not so in HoI4 - as soon as Japan declares war, the US will have enough AWS for Operation Olympic if it needs it. A demonstratrion of the impact of this is available in this week's WWW
.
Having historically plausible (but still abstracted) AWS mechanics, means:
- The Axis have more time to consolidate in Europe and the Pacific.
- Germany needs to earn it's Sealion if it wants decent amphibious invasion bonuses.
- The US, UK and Japan need to make hard choices between defensive and offensive ship-building.
- It's still possible to use transports/merchantmen for invasions, but this is as a last resort, and means much harder going for the invading army.
It'd also be nice if AWS appeared 'in port' once an invasion plan begun planning, so they could potentially be bombed, but that's less important than having them in the game in the first place.
Just my 2 cents of course - I think HoI4 looks great, am a fan and all that - but even if it was possible for us to mod in a separate pool for AWS, it would make a huge difference in terms of historical plausibility.
Edited: For clarity and layout, sorry it's a long post.
Edit 2: Suggestion clearly not for launch but DLC down the track, not suggesting HoI4 should be delayed.
Overall, of the around 21.7 million tons of fighting ships produced between 1937 and 1946, 31.9 per cent were AWS. This is more than the tonnage of BBs (5.2 per cent), CAs (2.4 per cent), CLs (4.9 per cent) and CVs (16.8 per cent) combined.
Ie, from a production standpoint, it makes more sense to abstract out BBs, CAs, CLs and CVs, than it does AWS.
It's also important to note that AWS were not merchant ships or passenger liners (of which there were around 45 million tons built by the Allies in WW2, and 5-6 million tons built by the Axis). Many were converted from those roles (primarily the UK LSIs), but the vast majority of tonnage of AWS, be they landing craft, landing ships or attack transports, were purpose-built, and often had a reasonable amount of armament (attack transports often had 4 or 5-inch guns on them).
In this context, techs that for a very reasonable coast magically transform liberty ships or 1920s freighters into LSTs, LSIs and the like is a huge abstraction. It's more distorting and just as silly as allowing a nation to use it's existing truck stock as APCs by allowing them to research one tech.
A potential, historically plausible system that works with the current set-up:
One way around this would be to require separate AWS production, with AWS kept in a pool like convoy ships, but are not substitutable with convoy ships. Make it possible to build better AWS over time (the US, UK and Japan all did this), and have invasions take from the 'best' ships in the pool before they go with the worst (possibly allowing invasions to be tagged for priority, if there are two invasions happening at once), with the bonus/penalty reduction given by the landing craft dependant on the type of craft available. Essentially the same mechanic, but now nations need to be able to earn their AWS capability, rather than have it gifted to them. The AI just needs to be taught to build the AWS separate from the convoys, so it's just as easy for the AI as the current system.
You can even have it that if there are no AWS, the system uses freighters, but these come with a huge penalty (in fact, I'd probably err on taking this approach) - this could proxy the potential use by Germany of invasion barges and the like for a historical-ish Sealion.
In terms of how the current system distorts gameplay:
- At the start of the game, the US and UK's merchant shipping stock means they can launch multi-division invasions, including armoured divisions, from day one. This was not a capability they had, and obviously allows for all sorts of invasion silliness.
- In 1943, one of the reasons the Allies didn't invade France was because they didn't have enough AWS in the right place to get the job done. Now, (presuming they start with historically plausible merchant marines) the US and UK start with the capacity to carry out Overlord in 1936 if they so desire.
- Similarly, in the Pacific, the US historically had to build up a stock of AWS before it could build really get its island-hopping campaign into gear. Not so in HoI4 - as soon as Japan declares war, the US will have enough AWS for Operation Olympic if it needs it. A demonstratrion of the impact of this is available in this week's WWW
.Having historically plausible (but still abstracted) AWS mechanics, means:
- The Axis have more time to consolidate in Europe and the Pacific.
- Germany needs to earn it's Sealion if it wants decent amphibious invasion bonuses.
- The US, UK and Japan need to make hard choices between defensive and offensive ship-building.
- It's still possible to use transports/merchantmen for invasions, but this is as a last resort, and means much harder going for the invading army.
It'd also be nice if AWS appeared 'in port' once an invasion plan begun planning, so they could potentially be bombed, but that's less important than having them in the game in the first place.
Just my 2 cents of course - I think HoI4 looks great, am a fan and all that - but even if it was possible for us to mod in a separate pool for AWS, it would make a huge difference in terms of historical plausibility.
Edited: For clarity and layout, sorry it's a long post.
Edit 2: Suggestion clearly not for launch but DLC down the track, not suggesting HoI4 should be delayed
.
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